What's the model name of the French Minié Ball rifle Musket?

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Pulka

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Hello

I'm looking for a france Minié ball Rifle-musket .

but I can't find it, so I'm asking for help.

The famous rifle-musket used at the same time include Britain's Pattern Enfield 1853 and Springfield M1861 , but the French model is nowhere to be found.

If you know the name of the model of the French Minié Ball rifle musket used between 1848 and 1866, please let me know or give me a website link.

I think there are many models, and I want you to let me know everything can.

Thanks
 

bisleyjohn

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Pulka

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Thanks for reply.

but I've already read it.

What I want to know is the French model name. (Like Springfield M1861)
 
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nkbj

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Whipped out Greener's The Gun And It's Development.
About all it says is how he thought of it first.
 

Bob McBride

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I’ve seen several place that say “The Minie Rifle, as it was known in France” but can find no model number. My best guess is to ask CapandBall on YouTube as he is an authority on European muskets.
 

RAEDWALD

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The French economically converted the existing M1822 and M 1842 muskets into rifle muskets by rifling the bores. Giving them a 'T' prefix (Transforme). Initial trials showed that the muzzle became too thin when rifled and Delvigne introduced progressive depth rifling with the depth of the groove becoming more shallow towards the muzzle. This turned out to improve accuracy as well as being strong enough. Eventually they were made thus from new.

These rifle muskets were later further transformed into the M1867 Tabatiere as breech loaders (also the Samain bolt action breech loader during the 1870 War) and later sold to the Belgian trade who converted them to shotguns and sold them to the USA where they are known as the 'Zulu' shotguns common on the US market today.

The M1822 musket began as a flintlock M1822 and were then converted to percussion as the M1822bis, then the M1822Tbis when rifled out as rifle muskets for the Minie/Delvigne bullet then converted to breech loading as the M1867 Tabatiere before ending their days as Zulu shotgun conversions. The M1842 was already a percussion musket.

In front line use they were replaced by the M1866 Chassepot bolt action breech loader with paper cartridges whilst the M1867 Tabatieres went to second line use for the Garde Mobile etc.
 

Rudyard

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Not just' Liked' Cant be but suitably impressed . I have the Juan Bouderey ? (badly spelled sorry) cahiais ? /(Note books ) covering French Service arms. Just a photo copied one but seem fairly complete . I have two copies .But I expect you have those useful works ? .
Regards Rudyard
 

RAEDWALD

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Thank you Rudyard. I have had both 2 Zulu shtotguns and a Samain, all in 12 bore. The Zulus had both been stretched by (insert preferred derogatory epithet) who have used nitro commercial 12 bore rounds. Still sound but sloppy. The Samain bolt action was still in good order and might have withstood a nitro proof depending upon the Belgian barrel quality but I don't trust the bolt handle root locking lug for that. Fine for black powder which is all I use. An actual Samain made Samain so properly made. M1822 was the base musket. To soften the Moderator's wrath, these all started life as muzzle loaders.
 

Pulka

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I’ve seen several place that say “The Minie Rifle, as it was known in France” but can find no model number. My best guess is to ask CapandBall on YouTube as he is an authority on European muskets.
Oh Thanks for your help.

I was going to ask him if I can't find the answer here.

I will also watch your YouTube channel.

Thank you very much.
 

Pulka

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The French economically converted the existing M1822 and M 1842 muskets into rifle muskets by rifling the bores. Giving them a 'T' prefix (Transforme). Initial trials showed that the muzzle became too thin when rifled and Delvigne introduced progressive depth rifling with the depth of the groove becoming more shallow towards the muzzle. This turned out to improve accuracy as well as being strong enough. Eventually they were made thus from new.

These rifle muskets were later further transformed into the M1867 Tabatiere as breech loaders (also the Samain bolt action breech loader during the 1870 War) and later sold to the Belgian trade who converted them to shotguns and sold them to the USA where they are known as the 'Zulu' shotguns common on the US market today.

The M1822 musket began as a flintlock M1822 and were then converted to percussion as the M1822bis, then the M1822Tbis when rifled out as rifle muskets for the Minie/Delvigne bullet then converted to breech loading as the M1867 Tabatiere before ending their days as Zulu shotgun conversions. The M1842 was already a percussion musket.

In front line use they were replaced by the M1866 Chassepot bolt action breech loader with paper cartridges whilst the M1867 Tabatieres went to second line use for the Garde Mobile etc.
Oh god!

This is the answer I wanted!

Thank you so much

I could get some more information from your answers.

I saw about Tabatiere Rifle in Wikipedia and now I know what it is.

But I have a question. Please answer me if possible.


Q.1 I saw the model name M1853, M1857, what is this?

Q.2 When was the change to the percussion cap of M1822 made?

Q.3 When did M1822T and M1842 start using the Minié Ball?

Q.4 The first percussion cap musket in France was the M1842?
 

RAEDWALD

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The M1853, 1854 & 1857 were basically new made variants of the M1842. I quote from The Rifle Shoppe:
'In 1853 the breech bolster was widened to move the nipple over slightly, making the bolster project out about 1/8" to the side of the barrel instead of flush as on earlier models. The caliber remained .70 smoothbore. The 1857 model was produced with a rifled barrel and most of the 1853’s were sent back through the arsenals and rifled, which were then designated 1853T (Transformed). Also in 1857 the 42 1/2" infantry barrel was reduced to 40 1/2" and most of the 1853T’s were also shortened. All parts are the same as the 1842 model with the exception of the breech bolster.'

The French started using the Minie/Delvigne ball before anyone else and their cartridge pattern was copied by the British.

The M1842 was the production new made successor to the converted M1822.

It is worth noting that the French rifled muskets initially used the Thouvenin pillar breech and not the Minie/Delvigne bulet. The bullet was flat based and expanded by being hammered onto the breech pillar (Tige) by the ramrod.

I think the conversions to percussion of the M1822 began in 1839.
 

Rudyard

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Thank you Rudyard. I have had both 2 Zulu shtotguns and a Samain, all in 12 bore. The Zulus had both been stretched by (insert preferred derogatory epithet) who have used nitro commercial 12 bore rounds. Still sound but sloppy. The Samain bolt action was still in good order and might have withstood a nitro proof depending upon the Belgian barrel quality but I don't trust the bolt handle root locking lug for that. Fine for black powder which is all I use. An actual Samain made Samain so properly made. M1822 was the base musket. To soften the Moderator's wrath, these all started life as muzzle loaders.
Dear Raedwald . I wouldn't think it would upset the moderaters . They where conversions from muzzle loaders and you gave a most comprehensive answer to the query . I always thought the Tabatiere
was a better plan than the Snider as you could see down the barrel & cleaning made easier. Not as pretty but tastes differ.
Regards Rudyard
 

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While I don't mind if someone mentions a conversion or cartridge gun that replaced a muzzleloading gun while describing the history of the muzzleloader, we do not discuss guns converted to self contained cartridge guns, following their conversion, or the cartridge guns that may have replaced the muzzleloaders, on the forum.
 

Pulka

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The M1853, 1854 & 1857 were basically new made variants of the M1842. I quote from The Rifle Shoppe:
'In 1853 the breech bolster was widened to move the nipple over slightly, making the bolster project out about 1/8" to the side of the barrel instead of flush as on earlier models. The caliber remained .70 smoothbore. The 1857 model was produced with a rifled barrel and most of the 1853’s were sent back through the arsenals and rifled, which were then designated 1853T (Transformed). Also in 1857 the 42 1/2" infantry barrel was reduced to 40 1/2" and most of the 1853T’s were also shortened. All parts are the same as the 1842 model with the exception of the breech bolster.'

The French started using the Minie/Delvigne ball before anyone else and their cartridge pattern was copied by the British.

The M1842 was the production new made successor to the converted M1822.

It is worth noting that the French rifled muskets initially used the Thouvenin pillar breech and not the Minie/Delvigne bulet. The bullet was flat based and expanded by being hammered onto the breech pillar (Tige) by the ramrod.

I think the conversions to percussion of the M1822 began in 1839.

After knowing the model name, I searched for a huge amount of information.

However, my question has not been resolved.

So I'm going to ask you a few more questions.

I think it will be a very difficult question.

Clearly, the country that invented the minie ball was France. However, as far as I know, the first French-made minie ball infantry musket is the M1857. If the M1857 is correct, it lags behind European countries with similar minie ball. So my questions arise.

1) The first French line infantry minie ball rifle-musket was the M1857?


2) What is the ammuntion of M1842, M1853? Is it a round ball?


3) The development of Minie ball is in 1848. However, the French Rifle Musket M1857 was developed in 1857. There are almost 10 years of time.
Which gun was the French Minie ball used during that period? Was it used for rifles used by light soldiers?


balles11.jpg


4) Please look at the picture above. Can you say that a French bullet worthy of a minie ball is an mle 1854? The first French minie ball was the mle 1854?



I hope you will reply as far as you know.
 

nkbj

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Thank you for including that picture.
It shows how far along thinking through the designs had come. Using the thin bottom lip to get the bore sealed quickly was an important development.
 

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I do find the cavity illustrations on the third and fourth image a little confusing. Were they a multi-cavity sort of thing, or did it have some sort of weird offset thing going on with a thin and thick side?
 

Pulka

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I do find the cavity illustrations on the third and fourth image a little confusing. Were they a multi-cavity sort of thing, or did it have some sort of weird offset thing going on with a thin and thick side?
All I know is that mle 1857 and mle 1863 in the picture were used as ammunition.

fusil 1.png
fusil 2.png
 

RAEDWALD

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Henri Gustave Delvigne invented the hollow base for expansion bullet in 1847. Claude-Ettienne Minie introduced a dished metal cup to the base to aid expansion in 1849. The M1854 bullet was in service in 1854 so you have a timeline.

To his credit Minie always gave Delvigne equal credit for the design package. Minie's contribution was the metal cup. The 'Minie' bullet of the ACW was James H Burton's reversion to the Delvigne design less Minie's cup but better executed. Other armies also dropped the cup in time but the term 'Minie' remains used for the deep hollow base rifle musket bullet. The Austro-Hungarian army used the Wilkinson type compression bullet for the same task.

BTW the M1867 was not a Delvigne/Minie design concept but a desperate attempt to keep the bullet light enough for the M1867 breech loader.

See also Nouvelle page 0
 

gbush

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Pulka, are you OK with the answer(s) you got? I have also been researching the French rifled musket models. It was hard to understand. Finally, I found a book "Du Silex au piston. La grande adventure des fusils reglementaires Francois 1717-1865." Each model has a chapter devoted to it. Maybe if there is something you still have a question about, I can try and help you. George in Jonesboro, GA
 
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