What's the deal with Lyman locks, half cock and the fly jazz?

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Livbucks

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Getting familiar with my new Trade Gun, I notice that I cant lower the hammer to half cock without lowering all the way and then bringing it back. After some searching I have found out about the fly. What purpose does it serve? I read a few references to removing the fly but no definite answer to whether it actually helps. Is there a way to modify and improve the function? I dont really want to resort to upgrading to an L&R REP lock, although that may be a possibility. Seems to me that the fly has no purpose except to agitate me, or would the sear hit the half cock notch when firing if it wasnt there?
 

Cowboy

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You hit it on the nail head my friend! The purpose of the fly is to prevent the nose of the sear from engaging the halfcock notch when the hammer is falling. Without the fly,the hammer would engage the halfcock notch and abruptly stop in mid travel with the very good possibility of breaking the nose off your sear. Needs to be there my friend and not messed with or modified in any way!

Respectfully, Cowboy
 

Livbucks

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Many Thanks Cowboy! I wasnt sure. My Traditions lock has no such issue. Is there any improvement to be had or am I looking at the inevitable upgrade? Are the L&R locks blued when you get them? They look bare in the photos. (for anyone with info)

Do the L&R locks function the same way with the half cock issue?
 

Cowboy

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No on looking at an inevitable upgrade unless you choose to do so? Lyman makes a descent lock.

Sure, a L&R is definitely an upgrade and a better lock but is only a modification that is not needed!

The Lyman lock has a coil main spring. The L&R has a flat spring.

A lot of wood removal would be required to fit the L&R lock into the lock mortise of the stock. It’s definitely not a drop in my friend.

I personally see no advantage as a must. I own two Lyman rifle’s which are made by Investarm. They have pretty descent lock’s.

As for the fly that you were referring to earlier? The L&R lock fly functions the same way for the same purpose my friend.

Respectfully, Cowboy
 

tenngun

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Your gun should have double set triggers... I think. Set triggers can only fiction with a fly in place. If you have single lever triggers you can shoot sans fly. However the lock will function smoother with a fly. We see them put on most civilian made finer grade guns even without set triggers. I’m making a single lever trigger gun right now... with fly.
As far as removing them... the old ones used to be big enough to be seen at a hundred yards. About the time I turned fifty they started getting smaller till they are near microscopic and I have to take much care to insure that I don’t drop one and lose it. I’m sure it’s one of the most lost and replaced item in the ML game.
 

Cowboy

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Your gun should have double set triggers... I think. Set triggers can only fiction with a fly in place. If you have single lever triggers you can shoot sans fly. However the lock will function smoother with a fly. We see them put on most civilian made finer grade guns even without set triggers. I’m making a single lever trigger gun right now... with fly.
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Yes you are correct in saying that some single trigger guns have a fly in the Lock. The Lyman Trade Rifle in question does have a single trigger. Also the Lyman Deer Stalker has a single trigger as well. Both these Rifle’s do have a fly. Their lock’s can be interchanged with the double trigger, double lever Lyman GPR. Another example would be the TC New Englander. It has a single trigger and a fly present in the lock. It is basically the same lock that is used for their double trigger Hawken and Renegade models.

Also as you’ve stated, the double lever, double set triggers do indeed need the fly present in the lock to properly function,

Respectfully, Cowboy
 

Stony Broke

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Without the fly, there is a good chance the lock could stub and stop halfway down, instead of the hammer falling completely. It is a good thing, and you are better off leaving it as is...
 

Livbucks

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Yes. It is a single trigger. You have me thinking about the double trigger swap. Not sure if it would be that simple?
 

Cowboy

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I’m not sure if the trigger plate on the Trade Rifle is the same as what’s on the Lyman GPR? If not, they will not simply drop in without modifications to the trigger well on the stock.

I do know that the Lyman GPR which is an ( Investarm ) and the Investarm Hawken will interchange. They use the same triggers. If you could pull the trigger from your Trade Rifle and post a pic I’d be able to tell you if the the Investarm triggers will drop in.

If it is a simple swap and you want double triggers for your Trade Rifle, I have extra double triggers that I pulled from a Lyman GPR. I swapped them out for a set of Davis DeerSlayer triggers on that rifle.

Respectfully, Cowboy
 

Livbucks

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I will get some pics when home tonight. Thank you kindly! The pull on the single trigger isnt great as expected.
 

Zonie

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Getting familiar with my new Trade Gun, I notice that I cant lower the hammer to half cock without lowering all the way and then bringing it back. After some searching I have found out about the fly...
What you found is common to all locks that have a fly in the tumbler and almost all of the locks on modern made rifles have them, even those with single triggers.

I mention this for the people who aren't aware of this and the danger of not lowering the hammer below half cock and then raising it back up to half cock on their guns.

If a person is hunting for instance and has brought his gun to full cock and he doesn't get a shot he will want to lower the hammer or cock back to half cock.

If he does this very gently, sometimes the nose of the sear will hang up on the fly and give the impression that the gun has been returned to the half cock position. In reality, the sear is just hung up against the fly when this happens.
If the gun is carried like this, the slightest bump on the stock can cause the nose of the sear to finally slip over the fly allowing the hammer to fall on the cap or the flint to hit the frizzen, causing the gun to fire.:eek:

That's why it's important to always lower the hammer or cock to a position below the half cock notch and then bring it back up until the nose of the sear can engage half cock.
 

Livbucks

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I have been experimenting and I found the best way to lower to half cock is to open the frizzen and lower to the bottom and then bring back to half cock. Then close the frizzen. I had no idea about this quirk until after I brought the gun home from the store. Not a large problem once you are aware of it. From the info @Cowboy has relayed to me, an upgrade to an L&R would not eliminate this.
 

Cowboy

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The GPR Triggers will definitely NOT work in your Trade Rifle my friend. The trigger plates are not even close! The trigger well in your stock is set up for a short single trigger, trigger plate. As it should be but you never know?

It was worth checking out and now we know!

Respectfully, Cowboy
 

Cowboy

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5E43F87B-BD5B-4F02-A247-E01595112CF3.jpeg C554AB84-B39B-4B47-9F05-9CD457A57A0B.jpeg These are two sets of Double triggers out of a couple of Lyman GPR’s I own. As you can see, they are not even close!

Sorry I couldn’t help you out my friend.

As far as your Lock goes though? You’re in good shape with your existing stock lock that comes with the rifle. Just have to get use to your trigger. Just spending time with your rifle will cure that.

Respectfully, Cowboy
 

Flint62Smoothie

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FYI, lessening the spring pressure on the coiled sear spring in an Investarms double-set trigger can greatly improve the trigger pull, without sacrificing engagement or anything.
 

good ole boy

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Grace Gun shop in Pa.has a special run of Traditions Pa Pellet model in double set triggers.A fella called Traditions and wanted to buy from them the double set trigger to go into his single trigger Pa Pellet(which is the only way they come).Trads would not sell him the trigger sayin it is exclusive and designed for that particular rifle for Grices only.
 
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