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WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

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Wow, that definitely looks like a solid set up with the gun rest, table and all.
Oh, not bad - and the 'gun rest' is just a quickie throw together from shop junk - a mini car jack, a boat trailer rubber V block lined with leather and mounted on a one by for a base.

The up side is I can quickly adjust the height by screwing the jack up or down - it's still work in progress and will be improved on soon!
 

wb78963

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Precision first, then accuracy
shoot a small group that is the best you, the rifle, and the load can do.
Now move the sights to get that small group where you want it.
Bunk
 

Woodnbow

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Wow, that definitely looks like a solid set up with the gun rest, table and all. I will start on getting together the right kind of set up. I know you weren't passing judgement, just giving me good advice. Thanks. :thumb: PS Great looking gun.
I’ll not chime in here as you’re getting some good advice except to say that a felt wad behind the ball and patch can sometimes save patches from burning through.... (great! Another variable! LOL) I just wanted to note your manner on the board is refreshing. Too often I’ve seen others come here, ask for help and then disappear without so much as a howdy do... all the best,
 

flashpoint

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I’ll not chime in here as you’re getting some good advice except to say that a felt wad behind the ball and patch can sometimes save patches from burning through.... (great! Another variable! LOL) I just wanted to note your manner on the board is refreshing. Too often I’ve seen others come here, ask for help and then disappear without so much as a howdy do... all the best,
Thank for the info and the compliment. I never met such a supportive group of guys that are so generous with their time and knowledge.
 

Mark Herman

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Everyone has given you good advise to follow. The one thing that popped out at me is that you are using .440 balls. Besides everything else I would go to .445 ball even if you have to go down to a .016 patch. With the right lube your .018 patches may still be good. The tighter your patch & ball combination the better your rifle will shoot it regardless of your charge.
 

Flinty Scot

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Mark Herman's advice made me realize that, while you are here, I'd recommend that you read some of the other, older threads on shooting technique. in particular, advice about using a ramrod to avoid splitting it - if yours is wood - and hurting yourself.
There are many lifetimes of shooting experience here to pick through and learn from.
 

Boomerang

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At 25yds with no wind and a good solid rest, you should be able to shoot a 5 shot group about the size of a quarter when you get the load combo figured out.
 

flashpoint

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Mark Herman's advice made me realize that, while you are here, I'd recommend that you read some of the other, older threads on shooting technique. in particular, advice about using a ramrod to avoid splitting it - if yours is wood - and hurting yourself.
There are many lifetimes of shooting experience here to pick through and learn from.
HI Flinty. Yes mine is wood (Hickory) Thanks for the heads up. With all this excellent advice, we should put it all in a book. :thumb:
 

flashpoint

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At 25yds with no wind and a good solid rest, you should be able to shoot a 5 shot group about the size of a quarter when you get the load combo figured out.
That's what I'm "shooting" for Boomerang.😂 Thanks.
 

flashpoint

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Everyone has given you good advise to follow. The one thing that popped out at me is that you are using .440 balls. Besides everything else I would go to .445 ball even if you have to go down to a .016 patch. With the right lube your .018 patches may still be good. The tighter your patch & ball combination the better your rifle will shoot it regardless of your charge.
You know, I was wondering about a 445 ball. I will consider trying that. Thank you.
 

flashpoint

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From a solid bench with sand bags or similar.
Absolutely work up a tight grouping load before worrying about sighting in, except to make sure it's close at 25 so you'll be on paper at 50. If groups are at least 2" or less at 25 and patches look good, then I move straight to 50. Stay at 25 and play with patch size and lube amount until patches look good and groups are decent as needed. I start with a lower end powder charge so that poor patches aren't the result of too high of a charge, just eliminates one thing to consider right off the bat.

Once patches look good and I'm hitting center at 25 with at least 2" or less groups, then I move to 50. At the lower end of the powder charge spectrum for whatever caliber rifle it is, shoot 3 shots, up the charge 5 grains, shoot another 3, etc. etc. until finding the point of the groups shrinking and then starting to open back up. The last charge used before the group size started to increase again is what you're looking for. Be aware that there are sometimes lower charges and upper charges that a rifle may like, aka "target" charges and "hunting" charges. My main goal is hunting, so I start at the lower end of a "hunting" charge. (I realize that can be a highly debated thing all on its own)
After optimum powder charge is found I like to play with patch thickness and lube quantities to see if I can shrink groups down more.
I swab every shot when doing the above. Once I'm happy with group size at 50 and the sights are dialed in, then sight in at whatever zero you want. After that I like to shoot at my zero sight in distance without swabbing. I just swab every shot all of the time, but it's nice to know if groups size stays consistent and loading effort is acceptable in case I find myself in a hunting situation where I want the time benefit of skipping swabbing if necessary. My Renegade for whatever reason, and with a very tight fitting PRB combo, absolutely goes haywire in where it puts them after three shots if I don't swab.
Thanks for laying it all out in sequence Renegade; very helpful. I tried to follow some of what you said today and have posted a photo of my target.
 

flashpoint

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Hi everyone.
Here's what I shot today. .45 Seneca, .440 ball, .018 patch, mink oil lube (I put my patches one by one in warmed up mink oil last night and when they dried, I scraped off the excess on both sides), 60 grains of FFg (4 shots) and 70 grains of FFg (3 shots) @ 25 yards. I swabbed with a dry patch 2 times between each shot.

With the 60 grains of FFG, the 2nd shot went in the same hole as the first hole. I didn't touch the sights. I decided to switch back to FFg rather than the FFFg I was shooting the other day. To me, it seemed like the FFFg really left a lot of residue behind causing me to pull the nipple several times to clean it out. I didn't get that with FFg today. So now that you can see my shots, what would you recommend as my next move? Thank you.
.45 Load Workup.jpg
 

Carbon 6

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70 grains is clearly the better group.
Odd that you say you are having fouling issues with 3fff.
Personally, I think you are over-lubing your patches which is causing the fouling issues.
Try spit lube once for comparison.
 

Woodnbow

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Hi everyone.
Here's what I shot today. .45 Seneca, .440 ball, .018 patch, mink oil lube (I put my patches one by one in warmed up mink oil last night and when they dried, I scraped off the excess on both sides), 60 grains of FFg (4 shots) and 70 grains of FFg (3 shots) @ 25 yards. I swabbed with a dry patch 2 times between each shot.

With the 60 grains of FFG, the 2nd shot went in the same hole as the first hole. I didn't touch the sights. I decided to switch back to FFg rather than the FFFg I was shooting the other day. To me, it seemed like the FFFg really left a lot of residue behind causing me to pull the nipple several times to clean it out. I didn't get that with FFg today. So now that you can see my shots, what would you recommend as my next move? Thank you.View attachment 52679
I believe I’d repeat the exercise with the .445” ball. How do your patches look? The 70 grain load looks promising. You’re eventually gonna shrink that group by a lot. The rifle is most likely capable of that kind of group at 100 yards with careful loading, shooting technique and wind doping... Give yourself time... and a pat on the back, it will come to you if you persist.
One other point. The T/C sights are fine for big game hunting, but if you really want to see what the rifle is capable of, you’ll need a peep rear and possibly a globe front. Not absolutely necessary but I use that setup for targets and load development and switch to a relatively fine Gold bead for hunting using the same peep rear with a larger aperture.
 

flashpoint

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70 grains is clearly the better group.
Odd that you say you are having fouling issues with 3fff.
Personally, I think you are over-lubing your patches which is causing the fouling issues.
Try spit lube once for comparison.
70 grains is clearly the better group.
Odd that you say you are having fouling issues with 3fff.
Personally, I think you are over-lubing your patches which is causing the fouling issues.
Try spit lube once for comparison.
Thanks carbon, I'll try that.
 

flashpoint

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I believe I’d repeat the exercise with the .445” ball. How do your patches look? The 70 grain load looks promising. You’re eventually gonna shrink that group by a lot. The rifle is most likely capable of that kind of group at 100 yards with careful loading, shooting technique and wind doping... Give yourself time... and a pat on the back, it will come to you if you persist.
One other point. The T/C sights are fine for big game hunting, but if you really want to see what the rifle is capable of, you’ll need a peep rear and possibly a globe front. Not absolutely necessary but I use that setup for targets and load development and switch to a relatively fine Gold bead for hunting using the same peep rear with a larger aperture.
Thanks for the encouragement Woodnbow. I will try the .445 ball with a less lubed patch. I recovered the patches (at least they weren't destroyed as I originally thought. The patches are not shot through although the edges are frayed. I'll try to post a picture of them.
 

Mark Herman

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Flash,
I would use the .445 ball with .018 pillow ticking or Teflon. Make sure you wash the ticking before you use it. For lube I would try Lehigh Valley or Mr Flintlock, just a couple of drops, you could also try spit. Whatever you use, don't over do it. I shoot 65 FFFg very competitivly. This is 13 shots at a table shoot with 65 hrs FFFg and .018 Teflon and a drop of Mr Flintlock.
20150620_160159.jpg
 
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