What twist in a Hawken?

[OB One]

I did the loading rod trick and measured the distance of the rod turning 180 degrees in a 50 cal Investarms barrel. The barrel and the loading rod were 28 inches long. I got 180 degrees of twist for a pull of 28 inches. I understand this works out for a twist of 56.
I haven't seen any with a twist of 56. So what am I missing?

 

[Griz44Mag]

It's a 1:60 round ball barrel. I run a .495 ball patched with a .015 lubed in mink. Great shooter!

 

[Rifleman1776]

1:56" twist is rather common and a good all-around especially for patched round balls. Some prefer the 1:48". But it is a potato/potatoe issue.

 

[OB One]

Thanks, Now I know how to describe it when I put it up for sale.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

For round ball above 1/56 and bellow 1/72 work darn good.

 

[mooman76]

Traditionally it's a 1/48 twist and usually the case but as you know with modern repros that isn't always the case.

 

[Carbon 6]

Investarms 50 cal barrels are 1 in 48" twist.

It is very easy to make a mistake measuring twist with a ramrod due to slippage.

 

[Cowboy]

Investarms 50 cal barrels are 1 in 48" twist.

It is very easy to make a mistake measuring twist with a ramrod due to slippage.

The Lyman Great Plains Rifle is made by Investarms. It’s a 1:60 twist my friend.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Carbon 6]

The Lyman Great Plains Rifle is made by Investarms. It’s a 1:60 twist my friend.

Respectfully, Cowboy

Lyman slipped my mind. Thank you.

 

[Billy Boy]

Has anyone tried Buffalo Bullet Co ‘Balletts’in a 1 in 60 or 1 in 66 twist?
I’m thinking easier, faster loading in 50 and 54 while suffering from frostbite and diminshed badic skills. Are they still available? TOW says ...’not available’ now for quite a while, thnx for any info

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Bill,
Hornady now markets a sort of "improved" bullet from the patched, round ball and the ballet...., you might try the "Pennsylvania Conical". https://www.hornady.com/muzzleloading/pa-conical#!/ Track of the Wolf sells them too. The original "ball-ett" from a maker are gone, though you might find a slight variation in a second hand mold..., the PA Conical is very similar to both.

It's an odd label.... since (iirc) PA requires the deer hunter to use a patched ball in ML season. Perhaps it's called that because they are marketed to be shot in slow twist barrels in "Pennsylvania Long Rifles" ??

LD

 

[Billy Boy]

Bill,
Hornady now markets a sort of "improved" bullet from the patched, round ball and the ballet...., you might try the "Pennsylvania Conical". https://www.hornady.com/muzzleloading/pa-conical#!/ Track of the Wolf sells them too. The original "ball-ett" from a maker are gone, though you might find a slight variation in a second hand mold..., the PA Conical is very similar to both.

It's an odd label.... since (iirc) PA requires the deer hunter to use a patched ball in ML season. Perhaps it's called that because they are marketed to be shot in slow twist barrels in "Pennsylvania Long Rifles" ??

LD

Loyalist Dave,

Thnx so much for the info, there is a niche in my system for this variation. I will try them!

 

[arcticap]

Bill,
Hornady now markets a sort of "improved" bullet from the patched, round ball and the ballet...., you might try the "Pennsylvania Conical". https://www.hornady.com/muzzleloading/pa-conical#!/ Track of the Wolf sells them too. The original "ball-ett" from a maker are gone, though you might find a slight variation in a second hand mold..., the PA Conical is very similar to both.

It's an odd label.... since (iirc) PA requires the deer hunter to use a patched ball in ML season. Perhaps it's called that because they are marketed to be shot in slow twist barrels in "Pennsylvania Long Rifles" ??

LD

Pennsylvania muzzle loader deer hunters are not limited to using a patched round ball during either their early general muzzle loading deer season or during their late flintlock season.
I checked 2 sources including the PA reg's.
There are some flintlocks with a fast twist like the Traditions PA Pellet Ultralight Flintlock rifle [1 in 28" twist].
Their flintlock season regulations only say "single projectile only".
Their early BP deer season regulations specify that they can use "any ball, bullet and sabot rounds".

1.--->>> https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/articles/muzzleloader-regulations-by-state/#penn
2.--->>> https://read.nxtbook.com/pgc/huntingtrapping/20182019/deer_hunting_regulations.html

BTW, not only does the Hornady .50 PA Conical have a lot of good user reviews when fired with slow twist barrels,
but the old Buffalo Bullet Company says that they're back in business after moving to Nevada and intend to resume production of Ball-ets.--->>> https://buffalobulletindustries.com/

 

[Zonie]

Has anyone tried Buffalo Bullet Co ‘Balletts’in a 1 in 60 or 1 in 66 twist?
I’m thinking easier, faster loading in 50 and 54 while suffering from frostbite and diminshed badic skills. Are they still available? TOW says ...’not available’ now for quite a while, thnx for any info

Because you said it would be in a 1:60 or 1:66 twist barrel my answer is, no.

Barrels with the twist you mentioned have deep rifling grooves that are made for use with patched balls.
A lead bullet won't be enlarged enough to get a good grip on rifling that deep and the lead won't fill up the grooves so there will be a lot of blow by happening when the gun fires.

Also, a long bullet (length/diameter) needs to be spinning at a rather high speed to stabilize it. If it is not stabilized it will turn end over end as it flies downrange.

Your cold fingers might as well load a roundball without a patch on it when their frozen. The accuracy will be about the same as the bullet.

(Ya. I know. There are hundreds of you guys who have gotten target accuracy with a long lead bullet loaded in your 1:60 twist barrels. )

 

[burlesontom]

Remember the rifles used in the Civil War were 1/60 twist and shot 600gr minnies very well with that slow twist.

If you have a 28" barreled Investarms you most likely have a 1/48 twist. I do have the only variation of this I have ever seen. I bought a gun off GB listed as a "Cabelas Hawken". But its not marked Cabelas but looks exactly like one.

It was listed as having a 1/60 twist with its 28" barrel. Sure enough it is indeed a 1/60 twist just like the Lyman GP rifle. The date stamp shows it to be a 1985 made gun IIRC. I haven't shot it yet. And one other difference from the normal Investarms guns instead of having a 5 groove barrel this gun has a 6 groove barrel. So I haven't figured out what I have exactly but it should be a good round ball shooter. But my Lyman GP rifle in 50 caliber shoots Lee 320gr REAL and the Lee Improved Minnie 380gr good enough for 100 yard deer hunting accuracy.

Here are the Investarms date codes to help with finding out when your gun was made.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I use the PA Conical in a 1:60 twist and it is very accurate at 50 yards and can keep under 3", 5-shot groups at 100 yards off the bench. I just used it for a hog hunt posted in the hunting section.

 

[Billy Boy]

The geometery of the 54 bore is wider, shallower lands and grooves, more like you would expect for a conical friendly bore. The 50 is a GM barrel with deeper land and groove look. I’ll give it a rip and see what happens in the 50. Thnx all for the input.

 

[Dr5x]

I USED TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME WORRYING ABOUT RATE OF TWIST.
DURING MY 4 AND A HLF OR FIVE YEARS OF COACHING I BEGAN TO PAY MUCH LESS ATTENTION TO RATES OF TWIST AS I FOUND THAT ONE TURN IN 48 INCHES AND UP TO BEEQUALLY ADJUSTABLE TO ACHIEVE ACCURACY. MY ONLY CONCERN ABOUT TWIST WAS WITH THE FASTER TWISTS WHERE THE LEAD OF THE PATCHED BALL WAS TOO SOFT TO STAY IN THE RIFLING GROOVES WHEN THE TWIST BECAME ONE IN 30 INCHES OR LESS.
I BOUGHT A GGERMAN MADE CARBINE THAT WAS A COPY OF A CIVIL WAR ERA ITEM, BUT THEY HAD SLIGHTLY CONVERTED A FORMER MACHINE GUN BARREL AND HAD LRFT THE RIFLING UNTOUCHED. . LOOKING DOWN THAT BARREL WAS ALMOST DIZZYING AS YOU COULD IT WAS NERLY A ONE IN 14 INCH TWIST.. I COLUD NENER HIT ANYTHING WITH IT..IT CAME WITH A REUSABLE RATHER HEAVY CARTRIDGE THAT HAD A SMALL HOLE IN THE REAR. YOU WERE TO LOAD THE CARTRIDGE WITHBLACK POWDER AND BALL, AND FIRE IT BY WAY OF A PERCUSSION CAP THAT SHOT FLAMETROUGH THE SMALL HOLE IN THE BACK OF THE CRTRIDGE. A COMPLETE MESS TO WORK WITH BUT THE MAIN PROBLEM, I FELT, WAS THE EXTREMLY RAPID TWIST OF THE RIFLING.

I GUESS THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN POSTED UNDER THE "LEMON" QUESTION.
GOOD, BAD AND INDIFFERENT, IT'S ALL EDCATINAL. THE WASTED MONEY WAS SOMETHING ELSE.

DUTCH

1:56" twist is rather common and a good all-around especially for patched round balls. Some prefer the 1:48". But it is a potato/potatoe issue.