What to do with a Spanish barrel by Bis

[dave_person]

Hi Folks,
Rich Pierce gifted me this Spanish barrel assuming I would use it. He is correct and I am very grateful. It has Bis' city and maker's mark and they are very accurate with respect to the originals. There are many Bis copies but this one may be true. It is 36.5" long and was never altered because the proportion of octagon to round sections is exactly right for Spanish barrels (2 fifths octagon and 3 fifths round)., It is massive at the breech and tapers rapidly toward the chiseled transition to round. Notice that the sculpting at the transition goes all the way around the barrel. The bore is pretty good with pitting at the breech and a dent about 5" back from the muzzle. It has a classic silver spider front sight. The maker's marks still show a little gilding The breech plug is almost 3/4" deep with wonderful swaged threads that are still very clean. They seem to be about 13/16-10 threads. Anyway, I will smooth and polish the bore, remove the dent, and rebreech it. Then use it on a new gun. So what should that be? A Spanish gun from the early 18th century, which could have a lock al a mode or a Spanish lock? Remember, Bis was from Madrid so Catalonian stocks may not be right. Or should I build an English fowler using a fine Spanish barrel? I've done that before.

dave

 

[appalichian hunter]

I would recommend the fowler. With your talent it would be a very nice fowler, make it a lefty and send it too me, hint hint. Which ever you decide it will be a fine weapon.

 

[PathfinderNC]

That's very cool. It certainly looks old and I love the details at the transition. Very artful and looks almost Renaissance-esque.
For some reason it says "Wheel lock" to me...

 

[Rudyard]

I have a barrel by Alonzo Martinez I stocked it as if English use. Then stocked up a barrel by Roxas which had been previously stocked up in England as a half stocked so I wed it to original Twigg parts there being no stock just a percussioned lock , guard ,one side nail ,the false breech , butt plate, & its trigger .as a rule Spannish barrels never has dovetails for the loops but like my two had seen such useage The Alonso Martinez being at least three hundred years . Wheellock are not unknown but these where more likley Miguelet locked originally .Ime sure Dave will do it justice . Regards Rudyard

 

[LawrenceA]

Whatever you do will be fantastic!
Might I lean you toward a Spanish gun.
Relatively speaking, there are heaps of English fowlers. But how many fine Spanish guns?

At the end of the day. What tickles your fancy? What is a worthwhile project? What will stretch and enthuse you?

 

[Artificer]

Hi Folks,
Rich Pierce gifted me this Spanish barrel assuming I would use it. He is correct and I am very grateful. It has Bis' city and maker's mark and they are very accurate with respect to the originals. There are many Bis copies but this one may be true. It is 36.5" long and was never altered because the proportion of octagon to round sections is exactly right for Spanish barrels (2 fifths octagon and 3 fifths round)., It is massive at the breech and tapers rapidly toward the chiseled transition to round. Notice that the sculpting at the transition goes all the way around the barrel. The bore is pretty good with pitting at the breech and a dent about 5" back from the muzzle. It has a classic silver spider front sight. The maker's marks still show a little gilding The breech plug is almost 3/4" deep with wonderful swaged threads that are still very clean. They seem to be about 13/16-10 threads. Anyway, I will smooth and polish the bore, remove the dent, and rebreech it. Then use it on a new gun. So what should that be? A Spanish gun from the early 18th century, which could have a lock al a mode or a Spanish lock? Remember, Bis was from Madrid so Catalonian stocks may not be right. Or should I build an English fowler using a fine Spanish barrel? I've done that before.

dave

Dave,

Is the dent shown in the picture from the muzzle and most prominent around 2 O'clock?

Is there a danger that there may be an inclusion under that dent, that may show up when you use hydraulic or mechanical pressure to force it back? I'm just wondering with an Iron vs a steel barrel?

Looks like a superb barrel to turn into one of your exquisite English fowlers.

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
Yes, you can see the dent. There is no inclusion and the dent should come out nicely. The reflection of the light makes it look worse than it really is. The bore is in better shape than the photo suggests. The really pitted area is at the breech but it can be cleaned up and so can the breech plug. The plug threads are in very good shape. These barrels have all the metal in the right places.

A wheellock would not be appropriate for a Bis barrel since he never made one and by his time they had not been made in Spain for almost a century. Bis died in 1726 so the barrel may be about 300 years old. A Madrid gun with Spanish lock might be a good choice. During Bis' time Spanish al a mode locks that look a lot like French flintlocks were popular but also the Miquelet style. The barrel has a single very shallow dove tail for a lug on the bottom of the octagon section, which makes me wonder on what type of gun the barrel was used. There is no obvious evidence of barrel bands nor of any soldered lugs and thimbles. A hint of heat bluing remains.

dave

 

[toot]

it looks like that the front sight is a trade gun TURTLE?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Dave

That barrel is a beauty. That extra large breech and fast taper suggest an early barrel. Do you own a Spanish style fowler ? If not, maybe treat yourself to something different. And that barrel is the perfect excuse. LOL A nice piece of European walnut. And, since the barrel is original, it might call out for an "original" miquelet lock in good working condition. LOL
Something like this ?
Of course, I'm just rattling away here. I'm sure what ever you build will turn out fantastic.

What does Brian Anderson think ?

Rick

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rick,
That is a beauty and another good reason to make it Spanish. I want to build a Spanish lock and this might be the excuse. Brian has not seen it yet.

Toot, no it is not a turtle sight. It is called a spider sight and the base is chiseled and dovetailed into the barrel as below so no heating is involved.

dave

 

[SOLANCO]

Beautiful barrel! Will certainly want to see what you make of it.

 

[rickystl]

Thanks Dave.

As you mention, the shallow lug on the bottom flat is rather curious. Hmmm. The Spanish typically used barrel bands for their guns - except the very earliest via matchlock/wheellock era. And with no sign of previous barrel band use, it's possible the Spanish barrel was used in a different configuration somewhere else in Europe. (?) Wouldn't be the first time.
Half-Stocks were so popular with Spanish fowlers. But duplicating something from the early 18th Century could probably afford you the use of a full-stock in this case, if my memory serves.
TRS has a Kit for a 1650ish Spanish Miquelet Lock that was copied from an original in the Levin collection. Correctly assembled, it functions well. I've used it.
If you prefer to build a lock from scratch, would be glad to send you pics or samples for my collection to use as a pattern.
Just throwing out ideas here. LOL

 

[sawyer04]

I vote for a fowler, but it will be highly acceptable with what you decide

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

It is CRYING out to be made into a Madrid arm of miquelet lock type! When else would you have the chance?

Personally I see an Anglais fowler as an ‘easy’ way out, but no disrepect to you is intended …

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Thank you all for your thoughts. I appreciate your input and enjoy reading your comments. I am excited about this barrel, can you tell? I tapped out the dent most of way from the inside using a steel rod with a flared rounded end. It did not need much. Then I filed off the dent on the outside and lapped the bore with sand paper on a cleaning rod and then green Scotch Bright pad dipped in aluminum oxide polishing compound. That did the trick and the bore is bright and shiny although there is still slight pitting from 300 years of use. It is clear this barrel was used. It is also clear that it was not used on a gun mounting a Miquelet lock because there is a rear bolt hole through the bolster of the breech plug. It was either used with a Roman or Al a Mode lock, or perhaps a flintlock. Of course, I don't have to follow suit and I can choose what I want. The breech plug threads were clearly swaged and the tang is angled off center. The face of the plug is notched for the vent hole, which is bushed. I will fix up the plug, which is in good shape but can use a little welding and aligning the tang with the barrel. I will also fill the lug dovetail on the bottom of the barrel with a strip of mild steel and peen the filler metal such that you will never know the slot was there. When I use the barrel, I plan to polish it and heat blue the surface. I will also gild all the maker's marks. It will look like a fresh Spanish barrel from 1710 when I am done.

dave

 

[rickystl]

Hi Dave

Great news on the barrel fix(s). With the fire bluing and maker's marks filled in, it really will be screaming out for a gun to be built around it. LOL Can't wait to see the finished barrel. With your talent, it's sure to turn out cool.
That's interesting about the bolt hole through the bolster. That does seem to eliminate the use of a classic Spanish patilla lock. Along with that dovetail on the bottom flat, I wonder if this barrel was re-used to build a second fowler sometime back in the period ? Would have been common since Spanish barrels like this were held in high regard throughout most of Europe and beyond. I've seen an English fowler built with a Spanish barrel, and a Spanish fowler with a Turkish barrel. LOL So the possibilities for your build are pretty wide. Will be interesting to see what ideas you come up with. Neat project.

Rick

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rick,
Can you point me to any resource for good images of Spanish guns from the early 1700s? Lavin's book sucks with respect to good photos and details of normal guns. He lavishes a lot of images on anachronistic breech loaders that are of no interest to me or any builder that wants to understand the predominate styles. From that stand point, Lavin is useless and Neal's book is much better but they are all insufficient.

dave

 

[rickystl]

Hi Dave

Let me reach out to my network of collectors. I should be able to come up with some examples. I know what your looking for. Yes, it gets difficult to find clear images, especially pre-1750 or so. Back in touch soon.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Dave: Try this photo for starters: More description to follow.......

 

[rickystl]

Dave: Note the gun in the photo is a full stock. Here is the additional info. I received. Hope this helps. Should have some more later.

Hi, Rick

"Good to hear from you. Here's a photo of a shotgun of the first quarter of the 18th cent. made by one of the court gunsmiths employed by the Spanish royals. The fluted "Madrid style" buttstock goes back to ca. 1700 or perhaps a bit earlier. What distinguishes the guns made during this earrlier period is those large trigger guards, which resemble those on late 17th cent. German and Austrian guns. Not surprising considering the influence of the early gunsmiths like Simon Marcuarte (Markwardt) and Nicolás Bis who were immigrants from Germany."