What size ball?

[William O.]

I have a Hawken reproduction with some very deep grooves and I'd like advice as to what size RB to use. I've been using mattress ticking that when mildly compressed measures .018 tick for shooting patches in my .54, but this rifle is a little different than anything I've owned before.

Grooves are .525 with the lands at .490. I cannot tell if the grooves are round or square. Any help is appreciated.

 

[Vaino]

The RB dia should be either .480 or .485......010 or .005 respectively undersize of the bore.

The patch for the .480 RB should be at least .027" thick and the patch for the .485 RB should be at least .025.Both thicknesses w/ their respective RBs will seal the grooves. Possibly these combos will load hard but using thinner patches will possibly not seal the grooves......Fred

 

[Rifleman1776]

I think fleto misread yer post. Ye asked about a .54, not .50.
For your rifle, or any new to you ml, trial is the best way to find a good fit. Pick up a box each of .530" and .535" balls and try them. When you have decided which works best for you put the rest of the others in your casting pot to melt down. I'll surmise you will select the .530" balls for everyday shooting and hunting. Maybe the .535" for serious target competition where you might need a mallet to start a tight ball. Barrels do vary so wat I said ain't gospel. Good luck.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Flehto read it just right. The Rifle is a 50 caliber with a bore diameternal of 0.490 and groover depth of 0.017 inches. I'm with Flehto and his suggestions.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Flehto read it just right. The Rifle is a 50 caliber with a bore diameternal of 0.490 and groover depth of 0.017 inches. I'm with Flehto and his suggestions.

Oops. :redface:

 

[William O.]

Yes, my new rifle is a Hawken reproduction and has Grooves at .525 w/ Lands at .490. Curiously it was advertised by the seller as being a .54 but when I placed a .530 RB on the polished/coned muzzle it was clearly not. I put a .490 ball down it and it went all the way to the breach but needed me to tap the muzzle on the rug to get it out, such was the tight fit. After my new mic came in I measured everything and was surprised at what I found. I only mentioned my .54, which is a different rifle that I've had for many years because the patching material I have measures .018 mildly compressed and out of my .54, works well.
It seems that I'm going to need to find .480-.485 RB's or a mold of that diameter and some thicker patching material.

The seller of my Hawken was not the original owner as it was custom made with a left hand lock and a 15inch LOP, both of which I need.
What is the formula for determining the size ball and patch thickness? Lands minus grooves or something like that?

Lastly, what determines caliber? The diameter of the lands?

 

[garra]

luckily .480 round ball is a stock item so you are safe without buying a mold. I usually use a ball gauge and stick in barrel to determine bore, then buy ball about .010-.015 under that size and use patch material for the final fit. Seems I always end up with a .015 thickness material.
Personally I prefer a smaller ball and thicker patch material than the other way around.

 

[Wes/Tex]

That's an odd barrel indeed. Just on the surface, you'll need at least .018" thick patch material just of fill the bore...more since it'll compress when lubed and under pressure. That'd be denim or thick and heavy linen, etc. If you won't need to do a lot of shooting, you can use my old trick of using chamois weight leather. I buy good ones from the auto parts guys when they have sales on them. Any light leather will work but those seem to have less chemical residue on them. Chamois compresses much more, per volume, than any cloth; it won't smolder on the ground; and can usually be wiped off and reused if you want to give it a whirl. Friend found out one of those roto-cutters will work on chamois even when it's too dull to cut cloth...we were off and running. Yes, it takes more time and effort to cut, lube and store chamois patches but they're great! :thumbsup:

 

[Grenadier1758]

What is the formula for determining the size ball and patch thickness? Lands minus grooves or something like that?

Lastly, what determines caliber? The diameter of the lands?

Your last question is the easiest to answer. The caliber is the diameter between the lands. In your case the stated caliber can be rounded up from 49 to justifiable be called 50 caliber. Or you can play to the unique and refer to the caliber by the ball size or 48.

There is no magic formula to determine the optimal load combination of ball, patch, lubricant powder granulation and powder charge weight. There are only some somewhat arbitrary guidelines. You do want a ball that is 0.005 to 0.010" under the land to land dimension. You should have a patch that will grab the ball and fill the grooves with a bit of compression. To start with I would do the ball 0.010" under the land to land diameter or 0.480". That leaves you with 0.045" of space around the ball to the bottom of the grooves. Divide that in 2 and that's a patch thickness of .0225". That patch has to be compressed to 0.005" to grip the ball on the lands. That's a tight fit, but should be loadable with a good short starter with bore protector. Your lubricant will ease the loading process. Damp lubricant will be easier to load and dry lubricant will be more difficult to load. You do need the lubricant to help the patch seal the ball. Powder should be real black powder and Goex is fine. Did the previous owner provide any suggested loading? I don't think you told us the twist rate. At this time it doesn't really matter as you will be changing powder loads to develop your most accurate load.

So what I have as a starting load to begin developing a load is 0.480" balls, 0.025" thick cotton patching, damp lubricant with a Ballistol(1)/water(7) parts mix, and 70 grains of 3fg GOEX. Use your measure to increase the load by 5 grains. Use a damp thin cleaning patch (loose jag) between shots to have a consistent fouling level in your barrel. Your jag may be need work as a 50 cal jag will only push fouling into your breech.

Its time to quite overthinking this and get out there ans start shooting. You will need a notebook or camera to record the effects of changes in load. Hmm, sounds a lot like Flehto's load.

 

[Tom Compton]

William, I have a .470 and a .475 molds if you’d like to try some. Also some thick denim I use in my guns.

TC

 

[William O.]

You do need the lubricant to help the patch seal the ball. Powder should be real black powder and Goex is fine. Did the previous owner provide any suggested loading? I don't think you told us the twist rate. At this time it doesn't really matter as you will be changing powder loads to develop your most accurate load.

So what I have as a starting load to begin developing a load is 0.480" balls, 0.025" thick cotton patching, damp lubricant with a Ballistol(1)/water(7) parts mix, and 70 grains of 3fg GOEX. Use your measure to increase the load by 5 grains. Use a damp thin cleaning patch (loose jag) between shots to have a consistent fouling level in your barrel. Your jag may be need work as a 50 cal jag will only push fouling into your breech. Its time to quite overthinking this and get out there and start shooting. You will need a notebook or camera to record the effects of changes in load. Hmm, sounds a lot like Flehto's load.

Yes, I am using Dutch's dry lube formula and my patching material compresses to .018. The jag that was included with the rifle seems pretty good with an oiled flannel patch around it plus I have 2 other jags in "50" caliber that I will try to see which has the best fit. I only use Goex now but there was a time that I had to try all the substitutes and plastic skirted pistol bullets; lessons learned the hard way. I'm tempted to call this a 48 caliber as I've never heard of a 49 but given that it was common practice to have a rifle barrel re-bored or "freshened" after accuracy dropped off I can imagine that a Hawken might start life as a .48 and then, if it survived a few decades, end up as a .54 or somewhere in between. I haven't measured the twist rate yet and the seller didn't include that information. I actually traded this Hawken for a 50 caliber, LH TVM Early Virginia flinter to the same friend who sold it to me a few years back. The TVM didn't quite have enough LOP for me so that same friend traded a Dutch Club Butt fowler for the Hawken, then traded that to me for the TVM that he sold me years ago. The Hawken is left handed and has a 15 inch LOP to it fits me perfectly but it's a 10 pound plus rifle; a real monster compared to my other muzzle loaders.
At any rate, the seller of the Hawken had never shot the rifle and it was custom made for someone else. I don't know exactly how he came to have it but I will figure out the twist rate here soon. Thank ya'll for all your help as this is a new one on me.

 

[William O.]

William, I have a .470 and a .475 molds if you’d like to try some. Also some thick denim I use in my guns.
TC

Thank you for your generous offer! Right now I'm dealing with some mobility problems which keep me from the range as well as traveling much but hopefully both will be resolved soon. I have a physical disability and as of last week, so does the transmission in my car.
First I'm going to order some .480 RB and by the time they come in perhaps I'll be able to take you upon your offer. Oh, plus there's that Thanksgiving thing...and my only niece's birthday next month. Plus my favorite aunt's birthday, next month.. Plus my fiancé's birthday; next month...Plus that Christmas thing...
I gotta collect some cans along the side of the road so I'll have some money to buy lottery tickets. :slap: :shocked2:

 

[Wes/Tex]

I gotta collect some cans along the side of the road so I'll have some money to buy lottery tickets. :slap: :shocked2:

You too, huh? :haha: :wink:

 

[Rifleman1776]

What is the formula for determining the size ball and patch thickness?

I am 'anti' formulas and numbers for most things in this, supposedly, traditional gun avocation. Stuff from the keyboard can only point you in a general direction. You must do the work to find the 'formula' that works best for you. As I said in my first post regarding the .54, the same approach can (and IMHO, should) be used. Get a box of .490" and .495" balls, patch material and lube then go out and shoot. Methinks the .490 will load easier but may not give the consistent 'X' finding accuracy as the harder to load .495. You won't know until you do it. Besides, this trial is a good excuse to shoot. And, that is the fun part. :grin: