What Hawk style?

[tenngun]

People do love fun stuff to own.. and decorated weapons have always been fun. So a man might have fun thing at home with something another man might scorn in use afield. Many military officiers had decorated fancy swords that they wore formally but not in battle.
Just thinking outload here.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I would start wood stakes with a few taps of the hawk then drive them home with a piece of firewood tween hawk and stake

I would bring a broad hatchet to ronny. My Dodge mule didn't seem to mind the extra weight.

 

[Coot]

So what do you drive wooden tent stakes with?

When I was using wood stakes I used a wood mallet to drive them in. I used ash or hickory to make the stakes & had to replace several every year. They seemed to have an unknown but limited number of times that they could be used before eventually splitting.

 

[Elnathan]

People do love fun stuff to own.. and decorated weapons have always been fun. So a man might have fun thing at home with something another man might scorn in use afield. Many military officiers had decorated fancy swords that they wore formally but not in battle.
Just thinking outload here.

Prestige weapons, some examples being more geared towards prestige and some examples toward weapon...

I wouldn't assume that a highly decorated weapon wasn't intended as a serious fighting implement, though. Decoration might even be functional in its own way, by highlighting the fact that the wielder was successful enough to have acquired such a fine weapon and therefore intimidating the opponent. I don't know if that particular dynamic was present along the American frontier, but it is a possibility.

 

[Grumpa]

"Prior to the Bowie knife I think they were prestige weapons for both sides."


Correct. On the frontier of the mid to latter 18th Century the tomahawk was a weapon carried by both White and American Indian warriors, and numerous are the period accounts of its deadly use by both.

Butler's tomahawks were both beautiful and deadly utilitarian.
Richard/Grumpa

 

[Grumpa]

Thank you, Spence.

General Richard Butler was indeed a courageous man.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[rich pierce]

Frontiersman covers a lot of territory but basic, non-polled trade tomahawks were widely available early on. Useful for small chores and defense in hand to hand combat if needed. Light and easy to carry. Some period militia regulations called for a musket, balls, pound of powder, and either a bayonet or tomahawk.

I have 2 original non-polled tomahawks, a contemporary very light spike hawk, original period hatchets, and a period axe. I once had a pipe hawk but viewed it as a toy. I’d hate to try to split wood with it or throw it. To take to the woods and carry on foot, the non-polled tomahawks are my choice.

 

[Stophel]

I'm not sure why driving wood tent stakes is such an important task for the tomahawk, and why people think the average 18th century frontiersman ever drove a wood tent stake anyway....

The common, poll-less, wrap-eye axe seems to be as good a choice as any to represent a common belt axe/tomahawk.

 

[Stophel]

Personally, I have a hard time buying the authenticity of any of the carpenter's hatchet-types as being 18th century tomahawks. If I could see a period image clearly showing one, or see where one was found in a known, dateable archaeological site, I would rest a lot easier with them. I don't recall seeing one found archaeologically. Otherwise, to me, it's just an old hatchet.

 

[Grumpa]

The Richard Butler tomahawk I mentioned previously, was rather ornate, engraved and inlaid with silver, and had Shawnee dyed quill work on the maple haft,

(which also had a silver band), and the forged blade had a silver pipe bowl that screwed off. This hawk was carried in battles, and was captured at the Battle of Quebec ( having passed through two or more owners). It ended up in Warwick Castle , England until the mid 1990s, when it was acquired by an American (named below). In form, it is an example of the hawks made by Butler when he was armorer

at Fort Pitt, beginning in 1765. It may be seen on the Contemporary Makers BlogSpot "From the Pages of Flintlock Magazine: The Richard Butler Tomahawk by Gordon Barlow" May 30, 2018.​

​

The PA and VA Rifleman units were the first authorized by the Continental Congress in 1775. They were required to carry tomahawks, as their rifles did not accept a bayonet. ​

​

Richard/Grumpa​

​

 

[Ketchakah]

Hatito friends,
This is one question that has been placed in many circles, and unfortunately one that may probably never be answered with certainty. Where as many documents list various Axe-like implements, it however, is impossible to determine what exactly they were.
We know there are quite a variety of sizes and styles. One may get a better idea by actually using the tool in a period manner. Of course we cant cleave someones head, but you know what i mean. (I hope)

Anyway, It is logical that one would use the tool best suited to the job at hand. One would probably Not use a tack hammer to apply framing nails. Nor a 5 lb sledge to drive wedge tent stakes, although i suppose both could be done.

Any axe can be used as a weapon, but the reverse is not necessarily true or at least not efficient.
Pipe Tomahawks, where as definitely used as weapons, i do not believe were intended originally as such. It is my opinion that most were ceremonial in nature and intended as gifts. There again, we do have documentation to support them used as weapons, but i can use a table fork as a weapon as well.

What many period drawings depict ... ( and i always look at drawings with suspicion ) may perhaps be Polled tomahawks. But there again, we may never know.

That said, hand axes seem to fall into two categories. One is a weapon (Tomahawk) and Two a hand or belt axe. it would be my opinion that the two are designed for very different purposes.

A weapon needs to be small and fast. The heavier the axe, the slower it is to use in battle. Likewise, an axe needs to be heavier so as to be able to cut in its designed capacity.
Yes both can be used as the other, but whats the best tool for the job would be the question. The "happy medium" is not always the best option.

Now for personal experience...
In my experience, a tomahawk, makes a poor tool. I carry one as a weapon when i do interpretations as a Native. However in the woods actually living the life, i carry a much heavier tool. I have seen people try to use light axes to quarter game and its extremely entertaining. Unless we are talking about cutting the feet off a skwerl or rabbit, a tomahawk is rough.

As far as driving stakes... well yes a hawk or axe can, and has done that. But for me, a sturdy log works much better.
Tent mallets were wood. This was to prevent the mallet from splitting the wooden stake. These metal stakes most people use are probably not correct from the very start, although there may be some documented somewhere, ive not seen them myself. Wood stakes were the thing for the military all the way up to 1960s in this country.

I do not carry stakes except when i use a Wedge tent and then its assumed i have a pack animal and even this may be questionable. On the trail i will cut sticks with the belt axe, and install them with a log. Out west in the pine forests, well this is a harder option.

As far as belt axes go, I use one that relatively stout, much like the British military pattern of the 1700s.
I have seen a plethora of small original axe heads and it is my opinion these are weapons and not tools of a woodsman. There are some axe-like tools used by carpenters and perhaps some may be these. (The Fort Meigs axe comes to mind)

The small, tiny bag axes that were all the rage some years ago are in my estimation some of the most useless pieces of dross one can carry. They are too light for any serious game processing and too short for use as a weapon. It is beyond me what they are actually for. Some of you may have more thoughts on this. Although no one, so far has been able to convince me of their worth.

Now i CAN see one perhaps used as a wedge to separate joints or split bone when driven by a log, the handle used only to keep one from hitting their hand. It would really be a single use item as its pretty worthless for anything beyond that.

But as many things, its not a worry for me, as what another carries is not my issue. Unless they poop out and i have to carry it for them.

 

[Black Hand]

I have seen people try to use light axes to quarter game and it's extremely entertaining.

As an aside: I have no idea why one would need an axe of any sort to quarter game. Animals have natural cut here lines (joints) that allow it to be separated into smaller pieces without needing to cut through bones. On the other hand, my polled belt axe has been used to clean small game and would presumably work for larger game as well.

 

[Tanglefoot]

Rather than just give everybody the benefit of my opinion, I'd like to refer you to Tomahawks Illustrated by Robert Kuck, published and copyrighted in 1977 by Aldine Printing Co., of Xenia, Ohio. It includes multiple photos of hammer poll belt axes and tomahawks as well as pipe `hawks and other period implements. I have no idea where to find a copy of this informative book nowadays, but I'd try Dixie Gun Works or Weller's Book Store in Salt Lake City. I've had my copy for years. I've found a belt axe/tomahawk very helpful in quartering large game animals like deer and elk. They're also mighty handy for cutting poles for a shelter, or a travois, or chopping holes in the ice, or cutting firewood that's too big to break easily or cut with my knife.

 

[hawkeye2]

A quick search located 2 copies for sale. About $75 each for 112 pages paperback.

 

[Stophel]

The problem is, that "collectors" have become authorities. While some collectors may, indeed, be knowledgeable, and I am thankful to some collectors, for sure, but ultimately, all a collector is is someone with an interest and money. And the earlier something is dated, the more valuable it becomes, the more money changes hands, and the happier collectors become... you can perhaps see the potential problem here.

If a collector says "this is an authentic, pre-Revolutionary War tomahawk/rifle/knife/shoe buckle/candlestick/horseshoe.." SO many people immediately take his word as gospel without doing any investigating themselves. What do we see looking at known history? What do we find in dateable archaeological sites? What do we see in period illustrations? That's a much better authority, I think.

sorry, just felt like griping.

 

[Ketchakah]

Hand is probably right.
People been cleaning game for thousands of years with a knife, and usually a very small one.
So... Now the question... Aside from Chopping legs off or splitting pelvis' or hammering in stakes, What do YOU guys use them for ?

Authorities.... SMH I was watching an episode of "Oak Island" They found this bit of iron. Immediately said it was a crossbow bolt. I saw on the TV it was NOT a crossbow bolt.
They took it to an "expert" who said it was the spike end of a Roman pilum. Well unless the Roman was 2 feet tall the "Pilum" was way small.
It did not take me too long to identify the item as likely being the shaft of an ancient drill bit, with the Cutting end broken off. There are examples of such existing.
Im not an authority or an expert, but simple life experience and a bit of research and one can find out all sorts of stuff.

One must also take period drawings with a grain of salt. Few people were "documenting" things. Rely on the ones that are confirmed documenters.
The rest had some other motive. Anything can be drawn, it does not have to be accurate. Especially if the artist is attempting to make a point. Its important to take the source and not the drawing itself into consideration.

Case in point... Is this a "Pipe Tamahawk" ? If it was a drawing could you tell ? It is NOT a pipe tamahawk.

 

[Ketchakah]

Thinking about all this today.
I actually cannot remember ever quartering game, large or small. Im sure it was done. But i would rather pack meat and not bones. (although Marrow seemed to be popular) Ribs became camp meat and all the rest removed from the bones and packaged for transport. Quartering was not necessary in my time.
I also do not "Cut" firewood, but we know this to be common. I will generally have very small fires and when needed feed the fire from the end or allow the fire to burn thru the middle. I'm very lazy i suppose.
If i had to cut firewood, i would use an Axe.

Poles for shelter or holes in ice. I can see that.

 

[Ketchakah]

** Hmmmm, Further reading of other threads has caused me to rethink my motives. It was not my intention to engage in speculation or rhetoric. It seems as i have slipped my purposes. For this, I apologize to all.

My focus is to pass first person (me) experience in primitive experimentation and usage, not to question the historical references or opinions of others.

Please forgive my slip Friends... I will be more aware in the future.

On this subject, Do you all think a thread that focused on Items we once thought important and do not now and why, would be interesting ? I would have started it, but i did not know where it would go.

 

[Danny Ross]

I can not speak historically but I can tell you from a medical standpoint. A tomahawk with either a pipe or hammer poll may not be as fast in a fight as one without, but I would not want to be on the recieving end. The pipe bowl or the hammer poll would allow the hawk be dual sided weapon and allow more weight upon impact. A blow to the head with either side of those kind of hawks would be deadly, to take a direct hit to a bone with the pipe or hammer poll could easily break them, or disable enough to make the strike with the blade side. DANNY

 

[Rifleman1776]

The small, tiny bag axes that were all the rage some years ago are in my estimation some of the most useless pieces of dross one can carry. They are too light for any serious game processing and too short for use as a weapon. It is beyond me what they are actually for. Some of you may have more thoughts on this. Although no one, so far has been able to convince me of their worth.

Most of the critics of tent stakes don't live in the Ozarks. For my ronnys I carried stakes made from 1/4" round mild steel. I pounded these through and around the rocks for my lodge using a Ft. Meigs hawk/axe. That same axe was excellent for making kindling and took a sharp edge for skinning and going through bone on deer and other game. Playing the survival game, if I had to go naked and take only one implement into the wilderness, it might well be the Ft. Meigs axe.