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Westley Richards double barrel

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I have two Westley's, one a percussion and the other a breach loader. I need a bore gauge as well for the muzzle loader as per W-R it was built in 1863 and as a 12 bore. Mine also measures like a 16ga. at the muzzle. Now the breach loader showed in the ledger as a 1870 built pin fire, yet it is CF and other ledger entries close to mine are marked CF . I have some doubts about how accurate the W-R records are? Also if that 12 bore was choked to 16 ga. that would be a extra super full choke in a 12ga. JMO
If there’s that much change in bore size from breech to muzzle, then it’s possibly a tapered bore for firing single projectiles, not just birdshot. Dual purpose shotguns were popular among 19th century British sportsmen because of the variety of wild game in Africa and India. The last six inches or so of the bore are where the round balls were stabilized and accurized. “Shot and ball” loads are usually engraved onto the barrels, action, or stamped into the water table.
 
I recently acquired this Westley Richards double barrel percussion gun. Typically you don't see a stock with the cheekpiece and rifle style trigger guard on a gun like this so I'm thinking a specila order back in the day. I sent away to Westley Richards for any information they may have had in their ledgers. The info came back the other day. From their ledger, it describes the gun as a double barrel 14 gauge percussion shotgun completed on August 6, 1849 for P. G. Van der Byl & Co. That's all the info I got. I tried to research the Van der Bly name but got nothing. Their ledger describes the gun as 14 gauge. I don't have a bore gauge but at the muzzles I get maybe a 16 gauge. So not sure why they have it as a 14gauge. Another oddity is that the name Westley Richards on the rib is in written script, not block letters like usually seen. The barrels, breech plugs, trigger guard and the locks all have the same serial number. The locks function perfectly and still fit nice and snug in the inletting. At first I thought maybe someone restocked it at some point with the style of stock it has. But the trigger guard has the serial number on it and the stock was inlet for this guard and lock plates. There is no indication that the stock was altered for the barrel wedge and no indication that the barrel lug was moved. The barrels are tight in the stock and fit the breech plug as they should. The barrels have the proper Westley Richards markings and proofs for the time period. But I am wondering about the name on the rib being in written script and was wondering if anyone might know if they used a written script for a certain period instead of block letters. I suppose I could contact Westley Richards again but I told them about this when I sent away for the info but there was no comments about that. So just wondering if anyone else knows.
Muzzlecap, I stand corrected. The book is Game Rifles and Guns, by Richard Akehurst. It's a fine book, goes until details about the coming of choke to barrels, how the Greener family were at odds about it, but does not devote a chapter to the WR guns.
The book is available for a small amount on abebooks. I highly recommend it.

Without rereading it, I found this on WR guns. I know there's much more, I just didn't have time to devote to sussing it out.
20230103_031906.jpg
 
You will often find that the measurement at the muzzle is larger than the bore size one of the main reason is ramrod ware also when bored from new there have been known to vary. I have also come across several sxs percussion with different bores the most common were 12 and 13 plus 14 and 15
Also there seems to be breech loading threads when it is a muzzle loading forum.
Feltwad
 
This is fun. Feltwad is on to something. Some owner of the weapon in the past 170 years could have had the muzzles opened up for a cylinder choke effect. Guns this old have often been subjected to a lot of tinkering. It’s rare to find one in original condition.
My own experience with the Westley Richards ledgers is they are/ were not necessarily well maintained. The same gun could have come in for repairs, but the guy presently handling the ledgers won’t go looking for subsequent entries of the same serial number. Sometimes you have to get enough information in hand to point him in a new direction so he can narrow down his search for other ledger entries.
Question: Is there any writing on the gun that you can see about loads, drams, “not for ball” etc? A great many shotguns were made for both shot and ball, and the wider choke / muzzles could be a result of that function one way or another.
Last, WR is a Birmingham firm, and 170 years ago Birmingham was the center of English firearms production. You could get any gun made there, because there were makers for every bit and piece of guns. Even firms of WR’s caliber (😃) pieced out gun orders, and some big name firms had their guns made by entirely by someone else like WC Scott. The script on the barrels could be from a passing style fad, or from the unique engraving style of the individual barrel jobber house or gun maker. A common shotgun could easily have been ordered by WR from one of the many other manufacturers there.
You have a fine weapon here in hand! Having the barrel thicknesses checked should alleviate any safety concern. Hope you use it.
 
I have a few British muzzleloader shotguns with damascus barrels that are tapered. The bore or "breach" diameter is bigger than the muzzle diameter. An example is a Joseph Manton that was advertised and sold as a 16 gauge. it actually needs 14-gauge wads to make a seal. The muzzles are .668 but the inside diameter at the breach and for about the first 11-inches is .695 and then gradually tapers to .668. This is not the conventional "choke", where a few inches from the muzzle is constricted to some extent. This is a true taper nearly the full length of the barrel.
 
I have a few British muzzleloader shotguns with damascus barrels that are tapered. The bore or "breach" diameter is bigger than the muzzle diameter. An example is a Joseph Manton that was advertised and sold as a 16 gauge. it actually needs 14-gauge wads to make a seal. The muzzles are .668 but the inside diameter at the breach and for about the first 11-inches is .695 and then gradually tapers to .668. This is not the conventional "choke", where a few inches from the muzzle is constricted to some extent. This is a true taper nearly the full length of the barrel.
The British put gain twist in many of their bp rifles and a taper bore in almost all guns. Unbelievable gunmaking skill
 
The last 2 posts explain why my gun is smaller at the muzzles (not bigger as several kept eluding to) . As I mentioned, I hope to find someone locally with a bore gauge to see actual bore size further down.
 
The last 2 posts explain why my gun is smaller at the muzzles (not bigger as several kept eluding to) . As I mentioned, I hope to find someone locally with a bore gauge to see actual bore size further down.
If the muzzles are smaller than the breech diameter, then your gun is for shot and ball unless explicitly stated in engraving on the gun itself. It probably shoots 600 grain round balls accurately out to 75 yards
 
If the muzzles are smaller than the breech diameter, then your gun is for shot and ball unless explicitly stated in engraving on the gun itself. It probably shoots 600 grain round balls accurately out to 75 yards
Could also be the reason the original owner ordered it with the cheekpiece and rifle style trigger guard.
 
The last 2 posts explain why my gun is smaller at the muzzles (not bigger as several kept eluding to) . As I mentioned, I hope to find someone locally with a bore gauge to see actual bore size further down.
When you find someone with a bore gauge, see if they also can measure the barrel wall thickness of each barrel, starting at the breech and measuring every 4-5” down to the muzzles. Doesn’t take long and will either save you problems or give you peace of mind. There’s a basic acceptable shotgun barrel wall thickness that of course I cannot now recall because my memory is like Swiss cheese, but it’s somewhere around 0.20” and the breeches like 0.30”
Hope this all is helpful to you
 
Any alteration of a pinfire to central fire today is vandalism. We should be about the Preservation of antique's the cartridges can be made from current spent cases I even load for a 14 bore PF .However we are transgressing into non muzzle loading themes .as Ettery & Felt Wad say.
Rudyard
 
I have a few British muzzleloader shotguns with damascus barrels that are tapered. The bore or "breach" diameter is bigger than the muzzle diameter. An example is a Joseph Manton that was advertised and sold as a 16 gauge. it actually needs 14-gauge wads to make a seal. The muzzles are .668 but the inside diameter at the breach and for about the first 11-inches is .695 and then gradually tapers to .668. This is not the conventional "choke", where a few inches from the muzzle is constricted to some extent. This is a true taper nearly the full length of the barrel.
I once had a curiously short barreled percussion gun It had a pronounced internal tapering a long choke in effect I concluded going on its general style & use of old parts that it was got up by some gunmaker for his own use as a Covert gun for Snipe perhaps. It had a Side plug conversion evidently from new not ex flint which for English guns is seldom met with other than the conversion's .
Rudyard
 
When you find someone with a bore gauge, see if they also can measure the barrel wall thickness of each barrel, starting at the breech and measuring every 4-5” down to the muzzles. Doesn’t take long and will either save you problems or give you peace of mind. There’s a basic acceptable shotgun barrel wall thickness that of course I cannot now recall because my memory is like Swiss cheese, but it’s somewhere around 0.20” and the breeches like 0.30”
Hope this all is helpful to you
Yes, I will measure barrel wall thickness as well.
 
Any alteration of a pinfire to central fire today is vandalism. We should be about the Preservation of antique's the cartridges can be made from current spent cases I even load for a 14 bore PF .However we are transgressing into non muzzle loading themes .as Ettery & Felt Wad say.
Rudyard
A sentiment and commitment to history many many people share with you. Here on this particular forum I think we are supposed to say “any historic firearm” and thereby bypass the non muzzleloader types. You are too well liked for anyone to want to see you get in hot water
 
This is fun. Feltwad is on to something. Some owner of the weapon in the past 170 years could have had the muzzles opened up for a cylinder choke effect. Guns this old have often been subjected to a lot of tinkering. It’s rare to find one in original condition.
My own experience with the Westley Richards ledgers is they are/ were not necessarily well maintained. The same gun could have come in for repairs, but the guy presently handling the ledgers won’t go looking for subsequent entries of the same serial number. Sometimes you have to get enough information in hand to point him in a new direction so he can narrow down his search for other ledger entries.
Question: Is there any writing on the gun that you can see about loads, drams, “not for ball” etc? A great many shotguns were made for both shot and ball, and the wider choke / muzzles could be a result of that function one way or another.
Last, WR is a Birmingham firm, and 170 years ago Birmingham was the center of English firearms production. You could get any gun made there, because there were makers for every bit and piece of guns. Even firms of WR’s caliber (😃) pieced out gun orders, and some big name firms had their guns made by entirely by someone else like WC Scott. The script on the barrels could be from a passing style fad, or from the unique engraving style of the individual barrel jobber house or gun maker. A common shotgun could easily have been ordered by WR from one of the many other manufacturers there.
You have a fine weapon here in hand! Having the barrel thicknesses checked should alleviate any safety concern. Hope you use it.
Westley ,from the configuration of the gun shewn here,Definately out sourced guns.
Joseph Rock Cooper was a prolific Manufacturer of both Sporting and Military firearms in the mid1800's. Trading mainly as Cooper & Goodman also as Cooper and Banks this one is an oddy
(and could have been one of a batch which slipped out of the side door ?? Bates is also a famous
name in English gun making and are still in business.)but has all the appearence of many Wesstley's I have seen.The German silver wood protector at the Beech, the Bar-in-Wood locks and the flat sided hammers. While the locks are not special they are of Fine quality and well polished. Note the marked fiddle grain on the quality piece of wood.. OLD DOG..
 

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