• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades

Were bayonets historically used on matchlocks?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Timuni

32 Cal
Joined
May 6, 2021
Messages
30
Reaction score
23
Hello all,
I'm curious whether there are any historical records of bayonets being fitted for matchlock firearms?

Bayonets started coming onto the scene in substantial numbers when the matchlock was in its latter days of standard military service. However the two did co-exist together around the second half of the 17th century, as pike-and-shot formations were likewise entering their final days, so I got to wondering whether bayonets might have been tried out on matchlocks during that transition period. If so, I'd be curious to know what types (plug, socket, etc).
 
Well you are clearly into matchlocks and you know of plug bayonets and my guess is anyone's guess so unless you can find some documentation so it remains , Sorry I can offer non, but interesting question.
Rudyard
 
Well you are clearly into matchlocks and you know of plug bayonets and my guess is anyone's guess so unless you can find some documentation so it remains , Sorry I can offer non, but interesting question.
Rudyard

I was hoping somebody here might have come across sources on this. I was told by an acquaintance to come here and "ask the experts" on these sorts of things ;)
 
I would think that halberds would be in use at that point in time, rather than plug bayonets. Archers, pike poles and swords.

Pikemen were the standard pre-bayonet, thus the phrase "pike and shot". The basic idea was for guys with long pointy sticks to form a defensive wall for the guys with shorter boom sticks. But once bayonets started entering common military use around the latter 17th century, the point of pikemen began to disappear, as a single infantryman could now fill both the pointy and boom roles with his weapon. But as this transition was happening, matchlock firearms were still in frontline service (often alongside early spark-ignition systems) until about the first decade or two of the 18th century. This is why I wondered whether bayonets might have been used on matchlocks before they became completely superseded by flintlocks.
 
Well good on you I hope you find some references . The' plug' B, net would become the' socket' B net and at that point the effective transition would ploriferate so logic dictates. But men aren't always that logical but your on the right track .
Regards Rudyard
 
Do you have any details to share? Who was it using them? How effective were they?
Not a big interest for me, so I r not checked out the references. In ‘Firepower-weapons effectiveness on the battlefield 1630 -1850 by Major general BO Huges he states bayonets were introduced in to British service in 1672.
He states improvements in musketry by by Adolphus in 1630 reduced the need for pikemen one pikemen to two musketeers to one for six.
Robert Held in his ‘Age of fire arms, puts plug bayonets know by 1580, matchlock time and dates the socket bayonets to a French invention cr 1690. Post flintlock invention and use for the French
Huges states it’s very difficult to look at effectiveness as there is no records dividing casualties up from musket artillery bayonets or cavalry
 
It would seem then that it was ' a B net' but this could mean a plain plug one ,which might be all you seek or when the socket bayonet is introduced supposedly French and from Bayonne in S W France .The 1690 sounds right & all before the being plug ones, just my surmise .
Rudyard
 
The French invented plug bayonets in the 1660s. British army got them in the ‘70s, and began transitioning flank companies to flintlocks in 1680. By the time flintlocks became army standard ca 1720, bayonets were mostly socketed. You do see plug bayonets in civilian use for almost another hundred years, mostly as a backup for hunting, as seen in various paintings such as Goya’s 1775 “Dogs on a Leash.”
Erik Goldstein from Colonial Williamsburg has a couple of great books on bayonets in New France and bayonets in the British army. You can get those from Track of the Wolf or Amazon.
Jay
 

Attachments

  • 9CF79FAD-847F-479B-B034-C15317F67B2F.jpeg
    9CF79FAD-847F-479B-B034-C15317F67B2F.jpeg
    160.6 KB · Views: 87
after you stick it into him and pull back it will not be in the gun barrel any more, so you better run!!!!
 
Hello all,
I'm curious whether there are any historical records of bayonets being fitted for matchlock firearms?
..., If so, I'd be curious to know what types (plug, socket, etc).

Part of the equation is the shortness of the matchlocks, vs. pikes, and vs. rapiers, coupled with the weight of the early guns due to the thickness of the stocks and barrels. They used forks for support at this time for a good reason. By this you can gauge whether the soldiers of a specific place and time would be more likely to be using a bayonet jammed into their muzzle, vs. a sword. Those serving in armies where they could lengthen and lighten the matchlock due to better metallurgy, would then be more likely to be able to put a bayonet to good use.

Prior to the bayonet, all the musketeers carried rapiers and forks:

MUSKETEERS IN ART.jpg


LD
 
They used forks for support at this time for a good reason.

Prior to the bayonet, all the musketeers carried rapiers and forks:

A good point. Certainly a full-sized matchlock musket of, say, the first half of the 17th century would be somewhat impractical for mounting a bayonet due to size and weight. However lightened matchlock muskets that could be fired without a rest were already seeing service by the latter half of the 17th century (about 1650 onward, roughly). And even before this there were lighter or shorter firearms (e.g. calivers and arquebuses) that could be fired from the shoulder without a rest. I just haven't come across references to bayonets being used, they seem to have been preferred on spark-ignition guns during this period. But then again I'm no expert.
 
Just wanted to welcome you to the forum, Tim.

You seem to know your onions, where matchlocks are concerned.
Are you in the UK? I presume so at present.
The Viking Sword site has a European section, with the best references anywhere on the planet for matchlocks. If you do a search there for any thread begun by Michael Tromner, .."Matchlock" You will find a wealth of information, but have not looked up bayonets per se.
Will find you a link.
Best,
Richard.
Link attached to one of Michael's threads.
passed away before his time, but was a wealth of information.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7542&highlight=Matchlock
 
Last edited:
Just wanted to welcome you to the forum, Tim.

You seem to know your onions, where matchlocks are concerned.
Are you in the UK? I presume so at present.
The Viking Sword site has a European section, with the best references anywhere on the planet for matchlocks. If you do a search there for any thread begun by Michael Tromner, .."Matchlock" You will find a wealth of information, but have not looked up bayonets per se.
Will find you a link.
Best,
Richard.
Link attached to one of Michael's threads.
passed away before his time, but was a wealth of information.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7542&highlight=Matchlock

Thanks for the welcome Pukka! You flatter me when it comes to knowledge, I'm certainly no scholar, just someone with an amateur passion for guns with bits of flaming cord on them that I can't quite explain... :p
I'm based in Ireland actually ;)
I haven't heard of that website, but will check it out. Thanks very much for the reference.
 
Once you do look it up it will blow your mind , blew mine put it that way . The full musket might have needed its rest but the Calivers being lighter didn't . . All matchlocks sort of affect those intrigued by them such as me & Pukka . Its the' new way backwards' and they come in infinite variety its a slippery slope but I enjoy scrambling on it .
Regards Rudyard
 
Back
Top