Weight and Balance for Offhand Rifle

[SciAggie]

I'm posting this in the flintlock section because I'm thinking about flintlock longrifles in particular. Is there any general consensus regarding the best weight for an offhand rifle? Also where should the balance point be? How do folks feel about LOP, drop in the comb, or cast off?
I understand that it is subjective and depends on the shooter. I also know that I'll get (good) advice to handle a lot of guns and see what I like. My problem is that I don't have access to a lot of guns to handle.
So I'm hoping to start a general discussion about the properties and characteristics of the longrifles that shooters use and like. I would like to learn from your collective wisdom in this area. I've searched the forum with limited results related to what I'm looking for.

 

[waksupi]

I think the most important thing for handling, is a swamped barrel. A straight barrel feels like a crowbar, a swamped barrel handles like a magic wand.
I like a rifle around 7.5#. I personally shoot a heavy rifle better, but age has made me go to lighter firearms for the most part.
Standard LOP is 13.5", but I find that a bit long for cold weather shooting with appropriate clothing for the temperature.
As for the comb, I want it to slope slightly towards the front. I've build all my own guns, and I close my eyes and shoulder the gun, and shape the stock until I am looking directly down the sights when I open my eyes. For me, off cast is usually reserved for smooth bores, but that is only my personal preference.

 

[Phil Coffins]

I agree, a swamped barrel on a long rifle changes everything. I prefer a bit heavier like 9 pounds or so. Easier to hold steady especially in the breeze.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

I shoot straight barrels, swamped barrels, and octagon to round tapered barrels in calibers from .32 to .62. If I am hunting, I much prefer the swamped barrels or oct/round. They are a pleasure to carry, quick to shoulder, and fully adequate for hunting shots. If I am trying to put five shots into one hole, I prefer the straight barrels. Barrel length can also be a factor. I strive for a balance point, for target shooting, that is just forward of my forehand so that the barrel "hangs" on the target. Too far back, and the barrel doesn't settle down. Too for forward, and the weight wears you out over many shots.

But, as Waksupi mentions above, the fit of the rifle to the shooter is critical. In either scenario, you can't spend time and effort trying to get your eye behind the sights. That has to be instinctive. LOP and drop are all individual variables. Before I bought my first flintlock, I handled lots of rifles until I found one that had that instinctive "fit" for me. I wrote down all the pertinent dimensions and have had all my subsequent guns built to those specs. They all come to the shoulder with the sights perfectly aligned.

Pick up and mount as many guns as you can until you find one that is a perfect fit. Then all you have to worry about is sight picture and trigger squeeze.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Well, yes - LOTS of thoughts and you will get even more opinions! But here are my thoughts ...

Barrel profile would be caliber dependent, i.e., to me you could go with a 7/8" straight profile barrel in a 45 or lesser caliber bore. I personally find the 50s on straight profiles to be TOO MUCH forward barrel weight. It's OK for a few shots, but not a string of them. Once you need to start using 'muscle' to hold the rifle, you're done for. Now there are execptions there, as I have a lowly 40-cal rifle bore but of loooong 44" barrel in a 'swamped' profile, and that hangs really nice! Usually and offhand gun with open sights has more drop than a scoped rifle. I find the early Flintlock school rifles to have adequate drop, i.e., think rifles like the Kibler Colonial rifle.

You do want the weight forward, where typically your balance point would be by the rear sight or just behind the ramrod rear entry pipe, but for a target gun that can balance go to that pipe if not more forward.

However, since I shoot offhand exclusively, there is MORE to offhand shooting than just the rifle itself, in fact I would rate it LAST on this list of everything I've added here. Now I do shoot modern highpower shootingoffhand to 200-yards weekly, but I also shoot black powder cartridge Schuetzen rifles, weighing to 14-pounds, out to 200-yards routinely. I am now practicing with my 50-cal flint longrifle out to 100-yards weekly, for the upcoming NE Flintlock contest to be held in Maine this Summer. And case in point to where I say your rifle choice per se isn't the biggest asset here for offhand shooting competence, at the weekly Winter milsurp shoots, I shot 3 different rifles, one over 150-years old, and I still placed amongst the top scorers,

Offhand Shooting Reading - For me, I have found the BEST articles/info to be from numerous sources, like that by the famed barrrel maker Harry Pope on offhand shooting - see link here: https://www.issa-schuetzen.org/off-hand-rifle-shooting.html Harry was of slight build, barely weighing 120-pounds, yet he shot a 14-pound rifle and one record group shot at 200-yards offhand, with black powder loads no less, still stands to this day!

Also the books on highpower shooting by M/Sgt Jim 'Jarhead' Owens - see link here: https://jarheadtop.com/ In particular, his books and info on aiming and establishing the Natural Point of Aim (NPA) are worth their weight in gold. I've taken shooters who 'think' they know how to shoot, teach them to correctly establish their NPA before they shoot and they routinely add 10-points to their score!

Now worldwide, the generally accepted 'Bible' on competitive shooting is the book by A.A. Yur’yev called Competitive Shooting: Techniques and Training for Rifle, Pistol, and Running Game Target Shooting.

Offhand Practice - I'd recommend 3 things before you even hit the range with your flintlock. (1) Get a good quality, pre-charged, gas, or single pump air pellet rifle and shoot in your basement or garage constantly. Practice with a purpose! The Daisy 853, available refurbished for $100, from the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP), is a phenomenal value to 'learn' how to really shoot. It will group better than you can. See link here: https://thecmp.org/sales-and-service/sporter-air-rifles/
(2) Practice picking up your flint rifle, with a wooden flint in the jaws, a few times a week and cheeking it and getting into your offhand stance until you can do it and be on target in you sleep. Your stance is crucial to good offhand shooting for a string of shots, again - the NPA. Anyone can hold a rifle and shoot 1 or 2 good shots ... but try for 10 or 20 in a row, like we offhand shooters do. If you have a good quality lock, do some dry firing with the wooden flint - stay on target and focus. At the range with BP arms, I see too many drop their musket/rifle right at the shot to see if they hit ... which always causes a miss ...

(3) All your focus MUST be on that front sight! I am left-handed, but do own and shoot RH'd black powdah arms and I have never, ever, evah seen the pan flash from RH'd firelocks, flint or matchlocks! Why? Again ... because I'm not looking there ... as all my focus in consistently and completely on that front sight THROUGH the shot and into the folllow-through. Learn to focus ALL the way through the shot, learn to call your shots - like that went 'high left' - as that means YOU knew where the front sight was as the trigger broke.

Learn the 'proper' way to shoot sir and you can shoot anything! Good shooting is quite simply eliminating 'bad shots'. For in the end - NOTHING ... nothing beats trigger time'! And that does NOT have to be live fire with firelocks to achieve it ...

 

[doubleset]

I don't take the original posting to be a request in how to shoot, but about physical properties of a rifle. Instead of talking about barrels, sights, etc., and trying implicitly to engineer some outcome, I'd rather start at the higher level of what you're trying to accomplish. My primary criterion of ease of offhand shooting is "slightly, but not excessively, muzzle heavy" together with a stock configured to facilitate the offhand stance (which most muzzle loaders already have, I think). Then, get there however best you can, and I'm sure there's no single design solution to it.

 

[doubleset]

All your focus MUST be on that front sight!

You see this a lot, and, sorry, but it's just not true. And people who say it don't really mean it except as a matter of emphasis.

If ALL your focus is on the front sight, then you may end up with a totally wonky sight picture that isn't uniform from one shot to the next. The rear sight, after all, is there for a reason. Yes, the front sight should be your PRIMARY and most important focus -- and since your eyes can't really focus on two distances at the same time, especially with age. But you need a clear and consistent SIGHT PICTURE -- which you can only get by paying attention to how the front sight appears within the back sight (okay -- unless you're using an aperture sight, which is a somewhat different story).

This issue of sight picture is even true if the sight is a single bead on a shotgun. And if you have a two-bead shotgun sight (as is common on some clay target guns), you'd better pay attention to the two-bead sight picture. And yes, the goal to a significant degree is for the sight picture you achieve to be "automatic" so you don't think about it or try to adjust it (though from time to time and for different reasons you'll need to). But getting to that point requires paying attention to the rear sight as you develop the appropriate habits and the "automatic" sight picture you want.

 

[SciAggie]

@doubleset You are correct. My post wasn't about how to shoot offhand but rather information specific to a longrifle. I'm surely open to all advice about how to shoot - goodness knows I'm not the best. I competed seriously in BPCR silhouette for many years, but there is a difference between a falling block BPCR with a 30" barrel and a flintlock with a 42" barrel. I'm fishing for whatever wisdom members here have to offer up from their experience. I have a lot to learn about shooting flintlocks so I thought this thread was a good idea. I wish I was in a place where I could handle lots of different guns, but unfortunately I am not.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Just remember, that within the shot cycle during the aim and due to a good NPA, one had already established the correct alignment between the front and rear sight. When one goes towards breaking the shot … that is when you are ‘focusing’.

To SciAggie - Yes, you may have initially inquired about the rifle, but it is only one component of great offhand shooting. My point is that a great shooter with a good rifle will kick ass over a good shot with a great rifle.

Whereas you have already shot BPCR, you will do well! Personally I don’t find any real difference other than the source of ignition.

Tight groups, I wish you well!

 

[TreeMan]

I love my flintlocks but I’ve never mastered offhand Shooting a flintlock. I’m beyond terrible. At 50 yards I can do better with a percussion revolver than any flintlock rifle lol. Good luck my friend!!

 

[Art Caputo]

Optimum balance in off-hand shooting for me whether a muzzleloader, or modern rifle is a function of rifle weight, balance point, comb height, and length of pull.
-Weight: For my body structure/size a perfecty balanced rifle weights 7-8.5 pounds. I can comfortably hold the 8.5 pounds without feeling fatigue for a about 60 seconds in position.
-Balance point. With the rifle mounted in my steadiest and most comfortable off-hand stance, the rifle will balance at the point in the forearm where my first finger touches the forearm.
-Length of pull. My length of pull is 13.5” to the trigger(primary). Trigger pull weight no higher then 2#. Determined with typical shooting/hunting garb.
-Comb height. With a light cheek weld, the sights line up to POA. With no secondary head positioning.
My most used and accurate off hand rifles meet the above criteria. One of my nicest shooting Ml’s with superb balance/weight is my Kibler Colonial, 58 cal.8.5#

 

[mingo]

Eons ago, 1960, There was a local guy who built bench rest FLs and may have been state champ at one time.
Very few people were shooting MLs in those days in my rural area.
He had a large collection of original rifles, mostly FLs.
I remember a couple of very long heavy pieces.
One had a long strip of cloth tied around the front.
He had been told by old timers in his youth that the rear end of these strips were held in one's teeth for offhand shooting.
Interesting event my memory cells kicked out.

 

[okawbow]

I win my share of offhand matches. I use a self built Colonial York style 10# 4 oz. longrifle with a big Davis Colonial lock and a 48”, 54 cal. Swamped barrel. Large, flatter buttplate. 13 1/2” lop. This rifle is balanced perfectly for me and the weight and barrel length keeps it very steady offhand. Also, at 68 yo, I can still see the front sight clearly. I also have a simple single trigger on the flintlock. I believe a properly made single trigger provides faster ignition and better feel on a flintlock than double set triggers do. Double set triggers tend to promote a flinch. Just watch the reaction of a shooter who has a failure to fire. Last week I won a woodswalk against everyone else shooting percussion rifles with double set triggers.

 

[waksupi]

I win my share of offhand matches. I use a self built Colonial York style 10# 4 oz. longrifle with a big Davis Colonial lock and a 48”, 54 cal. Swamped barrel. Large, flatter buttplate. 13 1/2” lop. This rifle is balanced perfectly for me and the weight and barrel length keeps it very steady offhand. Also, at 68 yo, I can still see the front sight clearly. I also have a simple single trigger on the flintlock. I believe a properly made single trigger provides faster ignition and better feel on a flintlock than double set triggers do. Double set triggers tend to promote a flinch. Just watch the reaction of a shooter who has a failure to fire. Last week I won a woodswalk against everyone else shooting percussion rifles with double set triggers.

I definitely agree on a properly hung single trigger, over set triggers. Much better trigger control.
Changing over from BPCR, or any other cartridge discipline, the main mistake I see is raising the head immediately upon the shot. Those who have watched the Denny Ducet videos, we had a hard time breaking him of raising his head, as he is on the local SWAT team, and looking at the target immediate was what he was trained to do. I think we have him cured now!
When you squeeze the trigger, get in the habit of telling yourself, squeeze, two, three, four, and keeping your head in firing position, focused on the front sight until the count is done.

 

[dave951]

Well, yes - LOTS of thoughts and you will get even more opinions! But here are my thoughts ...

Barrel profile would be caliber dependent, i.e., to me you could go with a 7/8" straight profile barrel in a 45 or lesser caliber bore. I personally find the 50s on straight profiles to be TOO MUCH forward barrel weight. It's OK for a few shots, but not a string of them. Once you need to start using 'muscle' to hold the rifle, you're done for. Now there are execptions there, as I have a lowly 40-cal rifle bore but of loooong 44" barrel in a 'swamped' profile, and that hangs really nice! Usually and offhand gun with open sights has more drop than a scoped rifle. I find the early Flintlock school rifles to have adequate drop, i.e., think rifles like the Kibler Colonial rifle.

You do want the weight forward, where typically your balance point would be by the rear sight or just behind the ramrod rear entry pipe, but for a target gun that can balance go to that pipe if not more forward.

However, since I shoot offhand exclusively, there is MORE to offhand shooting than just the rifle itself, in fact I would rate it LAST on this list of everything I've added here. Now I do shoot modern highpower shootingoffhand to 200-yards weekly, but I also shoot black powder cartridge Schuetzen rifles, weighing to 14-pounds, out to 200-yards routinely. I am now practicing with my 50-cal flint longrifle out to 100-yards weekly, for the upcoming NE Flintlock contest to be held in Maine this Summer. And case in point to where I say your rifle choice per se isn't the biggest asset here for offhand shooting competence, at the weekly Winter milsurp shoots, I shot 3 different rifles, one over 150-years old, and I still placed amongst the top scorers,

Offhand Shooting Reading - For me, I have found the BEST articles/info to be from numerous sources, like that by the famed barrrel maker Harry Pope on offhand shooting - see link here: https://www.issa-schuetzen.org/off-hand-rifle-shooting.html Harry was of slight build, barely weighing 120-pounds, yet he shot a 14-pound rifle and one record group shot at 200-yards offhand, with black powder loads no less, still stands to this day!

Also the books on highpower shooting by M/Sgt Jim 'Jarhead' Owens - see link here: https://jarheadtop.com/ In particular, his books and info on aiming and establishing the Natural Point of Aim (NPA) are worth their weight in gold. I've taken shooters who 'think' they know how to shoot, teach them to correctly establish their NPA before they shoot and they routinely add 10-points to their score!

Now worldwide, the generally accepted 'Bible' on competitive shooting is the book by A.A. Yur’yev called Competitive Shooting: Techniques and Training for Rifle, Pistol, and Running Game Target Shooting.

Offhand Practice - I'd recommend 3 things before you even hit the range with your flintlock. (1) Get a good quality, pre-charged, gas, or single pump air pellet rifle and shoot in your basement or garage constantly. Practice with a purpose! The Daisy 853, available refurbished for $100, from the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP), is a phenomenal value to 'learn' how to really shoot. It will group better than you can. See link here: https://thecmp.org/sales-and-service/sporter-air-rifles/
(2) Practice picking up your flint rifle, with a wooden flint in the jaws, a few times a week and cheeking it and getting into your offhand stance until you can do it and be on target in you sleep. Your stance is crucial to good offhand shooting for a string of shots, again - the NPA. Anyone can hold a rifle and shoot 1 or 2 good shots ... but try for 10 or 20 in a row, like we offhand shooters do. If you have a good quality lock, do some dry firing with the wooden flint - stay on target and focus. At the range with BP arms, I see too many drop their musket/rifle right at the shot to see if they hit ... which always causes a miss ...

(3) All your focus MUST be on that front sight! I am left-handed, but do own and shoot RH'd black powdah arms and I have never, ever, evah seen the pan flash from RH'd firelocks, flint or matchlocks! Why? Again ... because I'm not looking there ... as all my focus in consistently and completely on that front sight THROUGH the shot and into the folllow-through. Learn to focus ALL the way through the shot, learn to call your shots - like that went 'high left' - as that means YOU knew where the front sight was as the trigger broke.

Learn the 'proper' way to shoot sir and you can shoot anything! Good shooting is quite simply eliminating 'bad shots'. For in the end - NOTHING ... nothing beats trigger time'! And that does NOT have to be live fire with firelocks to achieve it ...

^^ This right here.^^

If you're not a competition shooter and never delve into this stuff, you may spend your life thinking "I can't shoot" when the real issue is you've never learned how. We spend time emphasizing the front post because it really is the most important. You also need to understand sight picture and alignment.

As for the perfect rifle, I'd say that depends on the build of the person and what type of shooting they're planning on doing with it. A dedicated benchrest/chunk gun is a non starter for offhand. In my opinion, length of pull, cast, drop, all the measurements used to create a custom gun, are wasted if you haven't learned to shoot properly first. For me, if the stock dimensions are correct, I want it to balance a tad front heavy, weigh about 10-11lbs and have either a set trigger or a 3lb single stage.

 

[French Colonial]

Practice dry firing with a wooden flint over and over, Make sure the sights never move before, during and after the hammer fall. (Yes I know impossible, but try your best)

When shooting targets assume every shot will be a Klatch and if you flinch your friends will laugh and humiliate you (which they will) With a properly set up flintlock the gun WILL go off and you will score very well grasshopper.

 

[LME]

Well, yes - LOTS of thoughts and you will get even more opinions! But here are my thoughts ...

Barrel profile would be caliber dependent, i.e., to me you could go with a 7/8" straight profile barrel in a 45 or lesser caliber bore. I personally find the 50s on straight profiles to be TOO MUCH forward barrel weight. It's OK for a few shots, but not a string of them. Once you need to start using 'muscle' to hold the rifle, you're done for. Now there are execptions there, as I have a lowly 40-cal rifle bore but of loooong 44" barrel in a 'swamped' profile, and that hangs really nice! Usually and offhand gun with open sights has more drop than a scoped rifle. I find the early Flintlock school rifles to have adequate drop, i.e., think rifles like the Kibler Colonial rifle.

You do want the weight forward, where typically your balance point would be by the rear sight or just behind the ramrod rear entry pipe, but for a target gun that can balance go to that pipe if not more forward.

However, since I shoot offhand exclusively, there is MORE to offhand shooting than just the rifle itself, in fact I would rate it LAST on this list of everything I've added here. Now I do shoot modern highpower shootingoffhand to 200-yards weekly, but I also shoot black powder cartridge Schuetzen rifles, weighing to 14-pounds, out to 200-yards routinely. I am now practicing with my 50-cal flint longrifle out to 100-yards weekly, for the upcoming NE Flintlock contest to be held in Maine this Summer. And case in point to where I say your rifle choice per se isn't the biggest asset here for offhand shooting competence, at the weekly Winter milsurp shoots, I shot 3 different rifles, one over 150-years old, and I still placed amongst the top scorers,

Offhand Shooting Reading - For me, I have found the BEST articles/info to be from numerous sources, like that by the famed barrrel maker Harry Pope on offhand shooting - see link here: https://www.issa-schuetzen.org/off-hand-rifle-shooting.html Harry was of slight build, barely weighing 120-pounds, yet he shot a 14-pound rifle and one record group shot at 200-yards offhand, with black powder loads no less, still stands to this day!

Also the books on highpower shooting by M/Sgt Jim 'Jarhead' Owens - see link here: https://jarheadtop.com/ In particular, his books and info on aiming and establishing the Natural Point of Aim (NPA) are worth their weight in gold. I've taken shooters who 'think' they know how to shoot, teach them to correctly establish their NPA before they shoot and they routinely add 10-points to their score!

Now worldwide, the generally accepted 'Bible' on competitive shooting is the book by A.A. Yur’yev called Competitive Shooting: Techniques and Training for Rifle, Pistol, and Running Game Target Shooting.

Offhand Practice - I'd recommend 3 things before you even hit the range with your flintlock. (1) Get a good quality, pre-charged, gas, or single pump air pellet rifle and shoot in your basement or garage constantly. Practice with a purpose! The Daisy 853, available refurbished for $100, from the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP), is a phenomenal value to 'learn' how to really shoot. It will group better than you can. See link here: https://thecmp.org/sales-and-service/sporter-air-rifles/
(2) Practice picking up your flint rifle, with a wooden flint in the jaws, a few times a week and cheeking it and getting into your offhand stance until you can do it and be on target in you sleep. Your stance is crucial to good offhand shooting for a string of shots, again - the NPA. Anyone can hold a rifle and shoot 1 or 2 good shots ... but try for 10 or 20 in a row, like we offhand shooters do. If you have a good quality lock, do some dry firing with the wooden flint - stay on target and focus. At the range with BP arms, I see too many drop their musket/rifle right at the shot to see if they hit ... which always causes a miss ...

(3) All your focus MUST be on that front sight! I am left-handed, but do own and shoot RH'd black powdah arms and I have never, ever, evah seen the pan flash from RH'd firelocks, flint or matchlocks! Why? Again ... because I'm not looking there ... as all my focus in consistently and completely on that front sight THROUGH the shot and into the folllow-through. Learn to focus ALL the way through the shot, learn to call your shots - like that went 'high left' - as that means YOU knew where the front sight was as the trigger broke.

Learn the 'proper' way to shoot sir and you can shoot anything! Good shooting is quite simply eliminating 'bad shots'. For in the end - NOTHING ... nothing beats trigger time'! And that does NOT have to be live fire with firelocks to achieve it ...

First time I heard of Pope ? I do agree with a lot he stated . A muzzle heavy rifle is an excellent choice for off hand shooting. Pope mentioned that, " you can't hold a rifle still" and I agree with him. He also mention that as you come on target you are pulling the trigger. Having a heavy muzzle keeps a smoother track than you can get with a lighter one making it easier to place a bullet where you want it to go. I found out in my early teens that moving targets were easier to hit with a heavier rifle than a lighter one for exactly the same reason. The only thing one needed to do was perfect the lead. When I started hunting deer we used hounds to chase the deer and if one wanted to take a deer they had better learn how to shoot one running. Once you caught on to the way to hit moving targets it made both a still target and moving target about the same when shooting off hand. Pope knew what he was talking about.

 

[sheriff john]

Longer the barrel, the better I do offhand. Front sight, for me, has to contrast with the target and rear sight notch sharp not only on top but also side-to-side. Guns I have now fit me well, some that went away did not. Hard to tell how one works out 'til I actually shoot them. Prefer muzzle-heavy for offhand.

 

[billraby]

The schuetzen rifles were designed to be the ideal rifle for off hand shooting. They are muzzle heavy and weigh about 14 to 17 pounds. They typically have lots of drop, a hooked butt plate, and a palm rest. They are also just about useless for anything but target shooting. For a long rifle I think the best you will get for offhand shooting would be something with a crescent butt plate, swamped barrel, and some cast off.

 

[LME]

Longer the barrel, the better I do offhand. Front sight, for me, has to contrast with the target and rear sight notch sharp not only on top but also side-to-side. Guns I have now fit me well, some that went away did not. Hard to tell how one works out 'til I actually shoot them. Prefer muzzle-heavy for offhand.

Long barrel, longer distance between post and front sight equals better accuracy not to mention how much smoother you can swing the rifle.