Want to buy 12 Ga side by side

[ike]

I have been reading your posts. I would like to purchase a 12 GA black powder side by side shotgun. I do not think I want one with screw in chokes. I would prefer a smothbore that had or that I could jug choke. What are your thoughts?

 

[robinghewitt]

What are your thoughts?

My thought is that you want a BP cartridge gun, ML shotguns didn't have chokes as we know them.

 

[Jack Walker]

Ml shotguns were choke differently by changing your loads, powder, wading, shot. Squire Robin hit the nail on the head. Screww in chokes are a modern concept.

 

[odean]

There's a nice looking DBL CVA shot gun at "The Gun Works" web site.

http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=1419&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes

Oscar/NC

 

well Ike
first i would say welcome to out little home away from home.


to you shotgun .
would you want to build one or buy one already made.
if buying one already made would that be brand new or Used.
if used would that be a custom one or a used manufactured one .
Also are you thinking a time frame. SXS/doubles have been around for a long time starting sometime around 1750-1760 and had their golden age 1780-1830 give or take .

What ignition system would you like flint or percussion , the early SXS where mostly flint and most of the things we look for in a good flintlock

 

[ike]

Thanks Captchee

Now back to you and chokes
Many guys will tell you that loading a muzzle loading shotgun with a choke is hard business and
IMO that

 

[Rebel]

Captchee, i would like to know how you get a card wad for a .12 ga past a full choke and still have it fit tight at the breech. I had A T/C New Englander with screw in chokes and it was impossible to get a .12 ga wad past the full choke tube without ruining the wad. If you go to a .13 ga wad to get it past the choke, it won't be a tight fit, and won't seal the bore good. :relax:I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, :shake: i am only asking to find out how you do it. You must have some trick that i am unaware of. Thanks for any advice on it. Take cae.

 

Ike and rebel .
I have seen some folks just use waxed paper to load as wading and cards and do ok , but I have never been that lucky
here is what i do, the problem with getting the wad down on a full choke is 2 fold
1) a hard wad that dosnt give
2) a jag thats plain to big and will not let the card cup so it will pass the chokes .
Also it

 

Please give me some more details about loading a full choke such as card sizes and what cards you use. What do you do with steel shot? ( since I do want to use this gun in hunting situations) What pattern concentrations do you find at what distance?
============================================================
the card size depends on your bore size to get the best fit when cutting your cards you need to know this , not all 12 gage are a standard size but will be within a few thousands of the .720..

as to pattern i use a 4x4 sheet of plywood and pace off 25 to 30 yards . now go back and draw on a piece of butcher paper , what you think a flying goose will look like life size wise with the nick stretched out just like he was flying "30inches long and 18 inchs high +or -" or go buy some pattern paper that have turkey or geese on them ,,, but hay whats the fun there right .
now the first shot should be the one with the least choke , aim right center .... no need to lead ,,,, he wont get away .
now go check your pattern .
* is it spread out ???
*do you have areas of large amounts of shot with little to no shot between them?
* what % of shot is in side you bird target ?

what i like to see is a good consistent spread and even ,with the majority of shot within a circle of 30 to 36 inches at this distance .
now take that paper down and put up a new one and do the same test , ask the same questions . the choked side "lots of different chokes" should be tighter in pattern

now take that one down and make another . this one shoot both barrels" not at once LOL" but one then the other just like you missed and needed a second shot . that ones just for fun lol

now that you have a base to start with you can start changing your loads and comparing what happens when you add or subtract or change from your load and that my friend is how i start working up a load for my smooth bores and SXS. Everything has an effect , wads made from different materials , more, less powder, to add a shot card , take one away ,two over the shot cards or just one . All that has to be worked through .
Just like with a cartridge gun you will soon find that there isn

 

[Rebel]

Captchee, thanks for the info, i appreciate it. My double barrel has cylinder bore barrels so i don't have a wad loading problem any more. I have used steel shot in it for waterfowl for years and there is no sign of any wear in the barrels from using it. Thanks again for the input. Take care.

 

[ben_tree]

Hi
I'm loading my full/full double with 2 1/8" thick cardboard wads soaked in wonder lube over shot then a 1/4" thick hard lubed wad which starts to pull apart going through the choke but once seated is fine.
Overshot I'm puching circles from old birthday cards and using them.

No problems so far like blown patterns or alike.

It was a pain for the first couple of loads but once I found the right size ramrod tip it's no more trouble to load that my cylinder bore.
Tha patterns are great as well, I was very impressed, think it patterns better/tighter than my full choke breach loader.

I can open the pattern up some by increasing the powder charge so really have a gun for all possibilities.

card sizes are:-
Overshot 0.76"
Overpowder 0.74"
Hard wad 0.73"

I have tested some plastic shotcups in both barrels and they seem to give me more range than I needed so am not using them as yet, but was looking at getting some for steel shot.

Cheers
Ben

 

yep i here ya bent tree.
i had a pretty well know gun maker " top 20 in the US and maybe top 10" i will leave his name off though. tell me one time that you could not load a full/full from the muzzle with cards and that if you tried you would just tear your hands up.
whelp to make a long story short things got a little on the heated side and i haven

 

[ike]

All of this information is great. :applause: Thanks much for all of your opinions and information. It has taken away my concern for buying a full x full or a chocked gun. Cabela's has a new 12 ga double with choke tubes. This may answer several needs. Since I phesant and duck hunt with an occasionsl trip to Western Minnesota to shoot at geese, I would be able to work up shot combinations for each hunting situation. It might also be fun as some others have talked about to take it to the deer blind.

A deer story if you have time.

A week ago I was in the deer stand. Three does came out of the woods and moved to a low spot about 150 yds away. They had to eventually come to me so I was patient. About 10 Min later a very large buck and a small basket rack buck came out of the woods. The two buck stayed on the trail that came to my stand. Im ready. I pull up on the buck. And I can see the rack on the wall. When I fired, the only thing that happened is the cap went off. :cry: I watched all five deer continue to walk down the trail. The last doe spotted me because I was moving around. We stared at eachother for 10 seconds. I than said "BOO" and she left in a hurry. It was fun to watch and I did have a good laugh at myself. I also have a good story to tell. By the way when I went back to the house I put another cap on the nipple and it fired just fine. Oh Well. :applause:

 

[Rebel]

Captchee, i didn't figure you would take offence, but just wanted to get it straight up front. Do you think that the problem i had could have had anything to do with the slots in the screw in choke tubes as opposed to a regular choked barrel? I was thinking maybe the slots were hanging up the wads. Anyway, i don't have that problem any more with the cylinder bores, and find that i hit, and kill, better with this shotgun than with my Mossberg pump. I have taken jackrabbits and ducks and geese out to at least 35 yads with it, and a lot of doves and quail, so i am happy with the way it performs with the open chokes.

 

Do you think that the problem i had could have had anything to do with the slots in the screw in choke tubes as opposed to a regular choked barrel?
===========================================================
well mmmm i guess it could be possible .
most time though a choked barrel is only choke the last 4 inches or so i guess the only difference would be the slotting of the screw ins .
mosberge i think for a while had screw in chokes that made the barrel about 1/2 inch longer and their tool they used was something like an oil filter wrench .

i would think though the problem probably was you loading jad was to big for the full choke . it didnt allow the wad to cup and pass the choke, Ie just wasnt enough room for the wad to do what it need to do , thus the jag was forcing the wad into the slots and tearing it up as it passed through . something like using a cleaning patch on your rifle thats to thick , you can get it to go once started but you may not get it back out . but if you go with a smaller jag that same thicker patch will slide down nice and easy yet still hold .
with a standard say wonder wad /cussion if you try to put it down a full choke side on a modified/full it will go down the modified with some resistance but on the full side when you place your thumb or loading jag on on the wad the edges want to curel up , if its alowed to curl it will pass as long as the card isnt so ridged as to not conform .
most comurcial cussions i have bought are just to hard to load in my full , full, i have to wonder if it really is doing what its suposed to .
LMAO
i loaded one up in a rubber band stretched between my thumb and finger one time and let it go at the guy across the fire pit from me while we where cleaning on afternoon . I was "REAL" suprised when it made a load THWAAAK :shocking: as it bounce off his forhead :no: mmmmmmmmmmm he wasnt to impressed lol :crackup:

 

[Rebel]

Captchee, you are probably right about it being the jag was to large. I was using the standard .12 ga jag, so there was no room for the wad to fold. Thanks for the info. I can understand your friend not being amuzed when you hit him between the eyes with the rubber band propelled wad. Didn't yer momma ever tell ya you could put somebodys eye out doing things like that. :crackup: :crackup:

 

I'm with you Rebel- ML or BP ctg. shotgun- the black powder loads do pattern better than modern stuff. It is a situation of lower muzle pressure. The muzzles of a BP gun can be so thin, you can cut them with a pocket knife - and WW Greener did that, just to show how thin they could be - yet with BP loads, there was no expansion of the muzzkes- THEN, smokeless loads immediately blew the muzzles open.
: The BP's low muzzle pressure doesn't blow the patterns as badly as smokless loads do.
: BP shot loads do an incredibly good job on game & if not over-loaded, are easy to hit with. Many people today use too-heavy a load in their 'pelters'. Standard loads as listed on the modern box work just fine, like 3 drams (82gr.) and 1 1/8oz shot, or 3 1/4 drams(90gr.) and 1 1/4 ounces of shot for a heavier duck or goose load. 3 drams also works well with 1 1/4 oz shot as does 2 3/4 drams (75gr.) and 1 1/8oz.

 

[ike]

Thank you very much for the information. The gun is on the way to me. Have you done business with this business? What are your recomendations? It will take about 10 days to get here and then we will see the quality. Have a happy thanksgiving.

 

if you bought the one from cabelas i believe it will be a pedresoli.
i have a friend that has one and at first he like the chokes , he now leaves them out as i got him to work up a load and he likes it better . it is kinda heavy IMO but over all i think its a pretty good double with a nice job done on the bores , you could have done worse for your money ,i think you will really like it .

 

[ike]

This is a used gun made by CVA. 12 Ga cilinder bore. It is like the one my brother has. I have shot his. He has it jug choked. We will try it as a smoth bore and then compare shot groups. If his shoots better I will get this one jug Choked.