Walker Hits The 135 Yard Gong--Again!

[Blizzard of '93]

that's why they are called Wonder wads! I shoot a '58 Rem using felts and Lee slugs, gives somewhat tighter groups in mine. I place a small dab of stiff lube atop the felt then the slug.

 

[rebel727]

The balls in my old 58 fit real tight. It shaved a thick ring of lead off when they were loaded but I still got chainfires. Now that old gun takes I think #9 caps and I was pinch fitting #11's but after I started oiling down the front of the chambers I never had another chainfire. Now I either use wads or Crisco or, Bore Butter and I still squeeze fit #11's on two of my revolvers(including the old 58)and no chainfires. There's no way you'll ever make me believe loose fitting caps cause chainfires. I've fired waaay too many rounds like that and never had one as long as I use wads or grease the chamber mouths.
It ain't no picnic for a 12 year old boy to have all six go off the first time he ever pulls the trigger on a bp revolver, specially when they're prolly packed with close to 50 grs. of powder and a good portion of the ball carved off so the cylinder will turn.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I'll have to confess that I have absolutely no experience with chain-fires. Never had one. I've been firing C&B revolvers for well over 40 years, so I guess that I've just been lucky. Or maybe the old timers that taught me how to load knew what they were doing. However, common sense would indicate that the flash at the barrel/cylinder gap can't get by a tightly fitting ball, and a felt wad isn't likely to halt a flame front that does get by the ball. I've fired many a cylinder without lube, and never had a chain-fire. If a cap is missing or too loose, you will get chain-fires. We've had this discussion many times before and leaving the cap off a chamber or a loose cap is how you get a sympathetic cook-off in an adjacent chamber. I do think that a slightly undersized ball in an out of round chamber might cause a cook-off, but don't have a revolver with this problem to try out this theory on. Maybe someone can help out with this?

 

[mykeal]

What's the Wonder Wad for? It just takes up space that is better filled with powder.

Well, a lubed wad replaces the rather messy grease/crisco/lube over the ball in the chamber mouth. It's a much cleaner, neater way to both seal the chamber and lube the barrel (and chamber).

Better? I don't think so. It's powder you don't need, actually. The most accurate Walker load is not a chamber full of powder. There is something to be said for making lots of noise and smoke, and I'll admit to doing it myself on occasion, but I'd really rather shoot the most accurate load most of the time.

Chain-fires are best prevented by using a tight fitting[url] ball...Chain[/url]-fires will commonly occur when caps aren't tightly seated or fall off completely.

Hmmm. How does a tight fitting ball prevent chain fires that commonly occur due to caps falling off?

A tight fit is important for more than one reason. Yes, it's effective in preventing chain fires that can occur when flash from one chamber enters the chamber mouth of adjacent chambers. It also lessens the chance that the ball will migrate forward in the chamber when adjacent chambers are fired, thus leaving an air gap between the ball and the powder. And it means that the ball will engage the rifling in the barrel.

A lubed overpowder wad, like lube/grease in the chamber mouth, is an extra layer of protection against flash entering the chamber mouth. It's primary purpose is to lube the barrel to keep fouling soft, but it does help prevent chain fires also. It's advantage over greasing the chamber mouth is that the wad is less messy.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The tight fitting ball prevents a chain-fire caused by gap flash getting around the ball. I thought that was obvious. The lube over the ball is to keep fouling soft and keep strain off the little parts that rotate the cylinder--thought that was a given too. Forgot that deliberate obtuseness is always a factor in this discussion.
This has been hashed over so many times that it is pretty boring at this point. I thought I'd give it one more try anyway. All I can say is that I am happy with my practices, I still have all my fingers, I hit what I aim at, and after all these years I have never blown up a revolver or had a chain fire. May you always be able to say the same.

 

[rebel727]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've only been doing this for 38 years so you've got an edge on me. I've not had a chainfire since I started lubing the chamber mouths and I use #11 caps pinch fitted on two revolvers. Sometimes they come off but I still don't get chains. Now to be honest the only gun I ever had a chainfire with was the old remmy I bought back in 69 that has #9 nipples and I used #11 caps on it(still do)but the fact remains I've never had another chainfire with it after I started lubing the chamber mouths or using wads. You'll never convince me that chainfires occur from the cap end.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I'm with ya RussT. always thought chainfires had orgin in cap looseness, maybe powder strowed about and stuck on grease. MAYBE loose fitting balls. nobody that has had a chainfire is gonna admit what they did wrong!

 

[rebel727]

I'm with ya RussT. always thought chainfires had orgin in cap looseness, maybe powder strowed about and stuck on grease. MAYBE loose fitting balls. nobody that has had a chainfire is gonna admit what they did wrong!

Well you would think that after chainfires galore that stopped after lubing the chamber mouths and never happened again even with ill fitting caps that it would be safe to say they didn't originate from the nipple end. But y'all think what you want, don't matter to me. I'm not going to argue about it anymore. :v

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Let's try this: no handgun in history was more famous for chain-fires than the pepper box. Now surely we can agree that the muzzle flash is not the cause in these guns. Hope so, because there have been films made recording the flash hopping around the breech end of the barrels of pepperboxes--especially the ill-conceived ones with a collar over the nipples that traps the flash. A couple of these films have been on television and I believe there is a segment in the Tales of the Gun series showing this phenomenon.
Sam Colt stated that a properly loaded C&B revolver will not produce a chain fire. I am inclined to agree with him. I've only seen but a few period loading instructions for these revolvers and none mentioned wads at all. Even lube over the ball was seldom mentioned. Good quality powder and caps and proper size ball seem to have been enough for the original users, many of whose very lives depended upon their pistols. And I doubt that there was a wad in the paper cartridges that were available back in the old days. I don't mind new ideas, but with the old guns I like to use them as close to the way they were used originally as possible. To each his own as they say.

 

[Zonie]

The very early Colt pistols also had a shield which covered the cylinder.
Because this shield trapped the flames from the discharged chamber and caused other chambers to fire removing it from the design was one of the earliest changes Colt made to his pistols.
This was (I believe) done before the gun actually went into production.

If you really want to see a sight, either fire your C&B pistol or watch someone else firing their C&B pistol after dark.
Pay special attention to the rear of the cylinder. When the cap pops and the powder ignites there is fire in that area going both up and out the sides.
IMO, if a cap has fallen off of a nipple, or if it has come loose it gives this fire a good opportunity to light off the adjacent chambers.

zonie

 

[rebel727]

I dunno, the gun was an older repro made in 68(I bought it new in 69)It's the one in my whacha think thread. Maybe the chambers are out of round or something, I dunno, but I still use #11 caps on it and I'm sure it was made for #9. I always thought it took 10's but I now have one I know takes 10's and the nipples on it are bigger. Pinched caps on the old one are a real sloppy fit and sometimes don't all stay on when firing. You'd think that with all the chainfires I was having I'd have kept having them after I started lubing the chambers if it was being caused by ill fitting caps, but I never had another one, so I dunno. I know some of y'all are a lot more knowledgable than I am but I just don't buy it.

 

[Rebel]

I would have to agree with you on the chambers being out of round on it. I fired cap and ball revolvers for years and NEVER had a chainfire until a few months ago when i got an old ASM Navy Colt. When i fired the second cylinder of balls through it i didn't use a wad or grease and had one other chamber go off as i fired it. After getting home i took my caliper to the chamber mouths and found they were all out of round.Up until this time i always figured it had to be from the rear fromn a missing cap, but if the chambers aren't round i think you can get chainfires from the front too.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Yes you can, until you do something stupid like I did and try to put 60 grains in with a wonder-wad! :redface: She no fit and I had to take the wedge out to turn the cylinder around to bring that chamber into battery to fire it!

Dave

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

A coffee can? Wholly Cow, man what a shot :thumbsup: . I'm looking through tri-focal progressives...don't know if I could even see a paint can at 135 yards!

Two and a half decades ago when I bought my S&W Model 29 .44 Mag with 8 3/8 inch barrel I could hit a #10 tomato sauce can at 100 yards. That was lonnnnnng before the tri-focals.

Dave

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Zonie,

That's what I was afraid of. It's only a nine inch barrel. Using Paul V.'s idea (only so much powder can burn in a given barrel length) and applying it to this Walker makes me stop and think a little bit about the net outcome as far as any increase in velocity or accuracy with a 10 grain (20%) increase in the load.

At 50 grains the recoil is quite manageable since the gun weighs about 4 1/2 pounds. Accuracy is really good right now too. I'm thinking that it might be more important to have a uniform pressure on the charge in each chamber to null-out one of the variables, than it is to squeeze another 5 grains into each shot...only testing will tell for sure! :hmm:

Dave

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I'm thinking that it might be more important to have a uniform pressure on the charge in each chamber to null-out one of the variables, than it is to squeeze another 5 grains into each shot...only testing will tell for sure! :hmm:

Dave

You have it right Smokin', consistency is the key to repeatable accuracy. amount of powder and pressure on the ram, bullet weight are 3 really important steps

 

[Blizzard of '93]

If you really want to see a sight, either fire your C&B pistol or watch someone else firing their C&B pistol after dark.
Pay special attention to the rear of the cylinder. When the cap pops and the powder ignites there is fire in that area going both up and out the sides.
IMO, if a cap has fallen off of a nipple, or if it has come loose it gives this fire a good opportunity to light off the adjacent chambers.

zonie

you have that right Zonie. fire flies everywhere from the busted cap. even towards the chambers (nipples) on the sides. after you shoot a couple cylinders check your hands for powder residue.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Zonie,

I have to agree with you about the fire in the nipple area, especially in my Walker. I just shot another match with it yesterday, and I cleaned it today. Just like always, I had to clean all of the hammer and what ever the hammer came in contact with...it was all loaded with crud! Since I use Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine to clean with, I merely wipe-off the crud as it emulsifies, but there is always a lot of it! I have to scrub the whole area around the nipples too. I soak my nipples in the Bore Shine and then use a pick for fine detail work, then a touch of oil on the threads and back into the cylinder. No rust doing it this way!

So IF I increase the charge, more powder will come back through the nipples and the revolver will get dirtier faster due to the laws of physics? Maybe I'm just better-off staying where I am at 50 grains! Unless I want to show-off at dusk that is, then watch-out cause I'll want to make all of the smoke/flash/noise that she'll give me!

Dave

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I guess that if I was really A-Retentive about it, I would weigh and separate each ball by weight and put them into zip-lock bags or something. Then only shoot the same weight ball at the match in hopes of improving the groups and thus taking away yet another variable in BP shooting.

No one is paying me to win the competitions and the above sounds like just too much work! :shake: I don't even own a powder scale anymore. Hell, if I really wanted to win all of the time, I'd buy a gun with adjustable sights :shocked2: . I'm just out to have fun and do the best I can with what "comes out of the box".

I do sincerely appreciate everyones thoughts. You all have given me stuff to think about :hmm: . I'll let you all know how the testing goes...maybe I'll even ask a friend with a chrono to come with me to the range.

Dave

 

[flibuste]

hello,

I am shooting various revolver ( Colt, Remington, R§S) and never had a chainfire until I tested a colt SAA 1873 percussion with a weak main spring.

FYI, I use to always top the powder with wheat powder (we call it "semoule" in French)and crisco and tightly fit the ball. BUT the SAA has a frame tightly fit around the back of the cylinder and due to the weak spring I had to repeat triggering to get the cap fired and in the process some cap probably have fallen while the cylinder was turning. I experienced 2 chain fire within a few cylinders. After changing the spring, I was able to fire at first strike and so the problem was solved.
If you look at the gun when fired it is evident that the flame at the rear can not escape the frame (as in a Rem, Colt or "normal" cap and ball revolver)and if there is an opportunity of a nipple without cap you are in trouble!!!

Hopefully, only the latch of the cylinder pin broke

Have fun