Vinegar's role in 18th-19th cooking

[zimmerstutzen]

Well Carbon, you discount the effects simply because the scientific reasons for the effect were not fully understood. I suppose your flintlocks could not fire until the chemical process of oxidation was understood. As I said in my post, effects not then fully understood. And vinegar will kill some pathogens and stave off others. Anybody who ever ate a pickle benefited from knowledge that vinegar helped prevent spoilage by killing off the microorganisms that would have otherwise destroyed the pickle. Whether they understood that microrganisms were the cause is irrelevant. They knew vinegar staved off spoilage,. As I also stated, the benefit of adding vinegar to suspect drinking water was apparently known and was recommended by the US Surgeon General during the Civil War. (cited in the earlier thread a few years ago) That vinegar will not kill ALL pathogens in water is a given and also an irrelevant factor to the reasons put forth 200 years ago for adding vinegar to water. If the reason was a THEN general belief that it cut down on disease, that is relevant. That it kills some pathogens is also known.

 

[Carbon 6]

No, I just understand the process.
Adding vinegar to your canteen full of water will not make the water in it potable unless it is of a very high concentration( like drinking pickle juice.) Even then it might not be potable. Some micro-organisms can withstand an acidic environment.

The benefits of pickling come from the addition of salt , vinegar and the beneficial microbes. Yeast when fermenting will give off enzymes that kill molds and chemicals like hydrogen sulfide that kill bad microorganisms.
The liquid used to make vinegar itself starts out free from harmful microorganisms because of the fermentation process and the alcohol that the acetobactor fed on to make acetic acid.

Even if you have some alcohol or vinegar (acid) in the water it still cannot be 100% safe immediately. They often "preserve" not by killing but by preventing growth, so time becomes a factor.

Boil your water first.
I also would be hesitant to add vinegar to a tin canteen.

Vinegar won't give you any appreciable amount of vitamin C either, because vinegar destroys Vitamin C
Mary M. Clayton and Celia Goos discovered this in 1936. and published it in 1945

Probably why you don't see Vitamin C listed on bottles of cider vinegar.

 

[tenngun]

They did pick out heathy things to do that worked before they knew why. Then they did a lot they thought was healthy that wasn’t and some that may have been harmful.
Malaria is an example. It means bad air. People didnt know about ‘sketers and germs, but knew to stay away from places they breed. Ship captains in the Caribbean or of Africa’s coast learned to anchor as far from land as they could.
Cook learned fresh foods and sauerkraut stopped scurvy.
Vinegar was used to clean the homes of sick and ships that suffered some sort of plague.
Like chicken soup, vinegar can’t hurt.
I drop water pills in my my canteens.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Carbon 6 said: "No, I just understand the process."
Apparently not. You are confusing modern standards of water safety with the standards 200 years ago. It is a matter of degree and what was thought at the time. If adding vinegar seemed to help avoid dysentery, then they added vinegar. Killing some pathogens is better than killing none although certainly not as good as killing all. Whatever their thought processes were, the Surgeon General during the civil war recommended the addition of vinegar to drinking water.

 

[Carbon 6]

Well, sometimes vinegar made their soup taste better.

The One Hundred and Fourth Regiment of Ohio Volunteer Infantry when they were camped at Snow's Pond in Northern Kentucky in Sept. 1862. They were camped near a sinkhole with water. They all drank this water.

"Close by our camp was one of those sinkholes peculiar to limestone regions; quite a large one, with plenty of water; stagnant and covered three inches thick with the pecular thin scum called frog spittle. Here we camped for three long, hot, dusty, weeks - men and horses and mules alike drinking of the fility stuff, till the water became so low as to show what lay hid in the bottom. Imagine our surprise and disgust at discovering carcasses of thirteen dead mules, thrown in there by the Rebels on their retreat. This was the famous camp at Snow's Pond."

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Vinegar and cholera
Ancient infective disease, coming from distant Asian regions. It is still present in several European countries and has often been mistaken with acute gastroenteritis, with which it has many similarities. In any historical period, cholera has been treated with vinegar. During the last century (1830 and 1884) the Government in Wien passed an order in view of the cholera outbreak, whereby people had to wash their hands before and after visiting a sick person, and also fruit and vegetables before eating them, with vinegar. It is well known that cholera can be transmitted through food; hence the need to take prophylactic measures and disinfect food.
Recent trials, as confirmed by the study carried out by Franco Mecca
(“Wine vinegar as a tool to prevent outbreaks and cholera outbreaks in particular”, Franco Angeli Editore) show that vinegar has a “clear and marked” disinfectant effect on the cholera vibrios and other intestinal pathogenic germs. The vibrios on the surface of fruit and vegetables, in contact with vinegar, are destroyed within 30 seconds – 1-2 minutes.


From the Ponti Vinegar website

 

[Carbon 6]

Vinegar and cholera
Ancient infective disease, coming from distant Asian regions. It is still present in several European countries and has often been mistaken with acute gastroenteritis, with which it has many similarities. In any historical period, cholera has been treated with vinegar. During the last century (1830 and 1884) the Government in Wien passed an order in view of the cholera outbreak, whereby people had to wash their hands before and after visiting a sick person, and also fruit and vegetables before eating them, with vinegar. It is well known that cholera can be transmitted through food; hence the need to take prophylactic measures and disinfect food.
Recent trials, as confirmed by the study carried out by Franco Mecca
(“Wine vinegar as a tool to prevent outbreaks and cholera outbreaks in particular”, Franco Angeli Editore) show that vinegar has a “clear and marked” disinfectant effect on the cholera vibrios and other intestinal pathogenic germs. The vibrios on the surface of fruit and vegetables, in contact with vinegar, are destroyed within 30 seconds – 1-2 minutes.


From the Ponti Vinegar website

That's in line with what I've been trying to say. Although I would argue that the hand washing or washing in general is more important than the vinegar.
The cholera bacteria are transmitted between humans through the fecal-oral route, so wash your hands after you go #2 and don't eat food from someone that doesn't.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

apparently rather effective at killing some pathogens. Straight kills cholera in 1 to 2 minutes, What would a lesser concentration kill in 30 minutes in a canteen? in an hour? There was a known anti disease effect.

 

[NeilMacleod]

Don't forget that the Natural Vinegar has Enzymes and healthy bacteria that enhances the digestive and immune system.
Hippocrates prescribed Apple Cider Vinegar mixed with honey for its health properties, so its benefits have been known for a very long time.
https://www.pitt.edu/~cjm6/s98vinegar.html

 

[Carbon 6]

There was a known anti disease effect.

I won't argue that.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Also don't forget that if you grew up drinking the local water, you would develop a tolerance to the pathogens in the water. Recently I was talking to a Pueblo Native in Taos New Mexico and he noted that the Pueblo's drinking water came from the "river" that ran through the Pueblo. The question was asked about the water bourn diseases. He stated that growing up they developed a resistance to the bugs, but those of us that drank city purified water would likely get pretty sick from the water in the river.

 

[Carbon 6]

Two things I'm reminded of,
1. adding vinegar to water dilutes it acidity. and effectiveness.
2. more people died from disease in the civil war than bullets.

 

[Carbon 6]

Ok guys, I'm open minded on this vinegar thing.
Question is, how much do I add to my canteen and how long do I have to wait ?

Also, what was a soldier's ration?

 

[Carbon 6]

I found one answer, the ration was 1 gallon per 100 rations was issued and camp ration. (Union army)
So if it was divided equally would be .78 ounces per man.

Another source say the ration was .32 gills, a gill being 4 ounces so that's 1.28 ounces.

 

[Carbon 6]

Judging from these accounts, vinegar seems to have been a condiment for use on meat..


Charles A. Stevens (a.k.a. Charley of Nimrod), a correspondent with the Fox Lake Gazette & brother of the famed Captain George H. Stevens of the Citizens Guard, Company “A” 2d Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry Regiment, writes on June 11th,1861 about the rations issued to the Citizens Guard while at Camp Randall in Madison, Wisconsin. Charley of Nimrod’s article appeared in the June13th, 1861 edition of the Fox Lake Gazette:

The boys are now furnished with butter at supper time, and fresh veal occasionally for dinner. The latter article, however, I do not believe will prove as good for them as the regular “beef and vinegar”.

On July 10, 1861, Charles C. Dow of the “Portage City Guards”, Company G, 2d Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry Regiment wrote to his friend James from Arlington Heights, Virginia:

Our rations are not of the most palatable kind, but rather of the substantial and consists of the following articles: pork, fresh beef, rice, coffee, beans, hard and soft bread, and vinegar. We receive beef, rice, and soft bread every alternate day. (The Second Wisconsin Infantry 136)

Charles A. Stevens once again details the rations of the Civil War soldier while at Camp Randall on September 6th, 1861. This time he is an enlisted soldier with the 1st Regiment of the United States Sharpshooters while training in Madison, Wisconsin. Charley of Nimrod’s article appeared in the September 12th, 1861 edition of the Fox Lake Gazette:

I find things here considerably improved since the time when the Citizens Guard first came into quarters at this place last spring. The barracks and mess room are now waterproof while tents are freely supplied whenever needed. As for the victuals, it is enough for me to say that they are in a “sound and healthy condition” and of great variety, such as beef and potatoes, bread and butter, coffee and water, beans, soups and stews, with a goodly sprinkling of pepper and salt, vinegar and “lasses”and occasionally fruit, such as melons & c.

Charles D. Waldo, a soldier in Company "D" 12th Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry Regiment, the Union Guards (a.k.a. the West Bend Hard Heads) writes about the rations he procures on January 26th, 1862 from Weston, Missouri. Charles article appeared in the February 8th, 1862 edition of the West Bend Post stating:

I seldom drill with them, as I have been chosen commissary sergeant of the company, and my time is too much taken up in attending to the duties of said office, to attend to much else. To give you some idea of what our company consumes, daily, I will give you a list of what I draw from the Quartermaster; 116 1bs flour, or 87 lbs. hard bread; 109 lbs. beef, or 65 lbs. bacon; 7 quarts of beans, or 9 lbs. rice; or in lieu thereof, 9 lbs. hominy; 9 lbs. coffee, or 1 1/2 lbs. tea; 14 lbs. sugar; 3 quarts of vinegar, and 2 quarts of salt.

Warren B. Pearson, of the 64th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment, writes from his camp near Falmouth, VA on May 30th 1863:

Our bill of fare consists of a daily allowance of 1 lb. of bread 3/4-lb. pork or beef 2oz. sugar and what salt, vinegar and coffee we choose to use, also an occasional allowance of potatoes, sirup , and beans. We have a chance sometimes to buy some things at the brigade commesary department by getting an order from our officers. I have some dried apple, and some potatoes on hand now. Dried apple is 7¢ per lb, potatoes 50¢ per bushel. Sutler stores are dear, I buy but very little. Butter is 50¢ lb, cheese 40¢ lb, eggs 50¢ doz, apples 5¢ each, and other things in proportion.

George P. Risdon, a soldier in Company “F”, 20th Regiment Veteran Reserve Corps writes to his sister about not having vinegar to soak his salt pork. George Risdon is writing from Camp Hoffman-Point Lookout Maryland, June 28th, 1864. Because of the unique description of Civil War rations by Mr. Risdon to his sister, I will cite more than just the portion of his letter, which refers to vinegar.

Dina make a strawberry short cake and eat a piece of it for me and think while you are eating it of from a good table with a white clothe upon it and earthen dishes to eat of from: of setting outside of your tent and eating a piece of Salt horse on a tin plate in your lap and a tin cup full of coffee setting on the ground by your side and a case knife in your hand and using your fingers for forks and when you get that piece eat whish you had some more of the same but can't get it because you have had you ration. Think of that and you might call it tough but then again let me call your mind to the front. While you are eating your strawberry short cake think of the soldier at the front, poor soldier, you would say. After marching all day through the hot sun when he stops for the knight drops his blanket and gun and starts off for a rail if he can get one if not he picks up such sticks as he can find and starts a fire, gets some water in his canteen and makes him a cop of coffee then pours in some cold water to sittle it and then takes his hard tack from his haversack and a piece of Salt pork raw without any vinegar to put on it and eats his supper without any plate or knife at all. Think of that and then think how long the war has lasted and how much longer it is to last, how it was brought on in the first place; how many lives have been lost and how much suffering has been caused then get up, shake your selfe and Houle.

Alfred Wade recollects in his personal journal his rations at Libby Prison in Richmond Virginia. Wade was the Adjutant for the 73rd Indiana Volunteer Infantry Regiment. Confederate forces near Rome, Georgia captured him on May 3rd, 1863. This part of his account is from his journal dated July 4th, 1863:

... I may as well put our rations down here for the benefit of history. It consists of Bread ½ loaf (enough for two meals if we had other provisions plenty) Fresh beef ¼ lb. rice or beans ¼ as much as our man would eat salt and vinegar in very small quantities. This is all and is about 1/3 of the U.S. Govt. ration.

 

[Carbon 6]

Gregory A. Coco describes in his The Civil War Infantryman, canteens, which were sized to hold 2.5 to 3 pints of water—the amount needed by an average infantryman on a daily march.

Finally ! an account of vinegar used in water. (I must have read through a 100)

Sullivan Ballou of Rhode Island wrote home on July 19, 1861, to his wife Sarah: “We are about five miles from Manassas. I am sitting under a few green boughs writing on a drum head . . . . I am very tired but perfectly well; and would give a hundred dollars if I could get a good meal of victuals. The streams are muddy & water very poor—however I am able to get a little vinegar to put in it and that is all. Hard bread [hardtack] & joints of meat are all we can get to eat, and that goes hard 3 times a day.”(27)

 

[tenngun]

Plumb Martin talked about his meat served ‘without sauce’.Townsend used it as intro to a mushroom ketchup video.
I would think any man eating plain army rations would be more then happy to get something to add a bite to his food. And vinegars add a lot of flavors, a little taste of home.
The astronomer Kepler wrote that his wife gave him a salad one day, and he asked her if she thought greens, eggs,and onions flying randomly through space could randomly get together and make a salad. His wife said she thought it could....’but not as nice as mine’

 

[Carbon 6]

The astronomer Kepler wrote that his wife gave him a salad one day, and he asked her if she thought greens, eggs,and onions flying randomly through space could randomly get together and make a salad. His wife said she thought it could....’but not as nice as mine’