Use of muzzleloaders in the Old West in the 1870s-90s

[user 56333]

I'm curious how many historical references we can find for the use of muzzleloaders in the American West during the 1870s-90s. For the moment let's exclude cap-and-ball revolvers ... I'm more interested in hearing about actual muzzle-loaders, not cylinder-loaders

For instance, here's a reference for a flintlock-to-percussion converted rifle being used by the Cheyenne in the 1870s:

"Lieutenant Clark, 2d U.S. Cavalry, took some specimens from the Cheyenne in 1876 which were sent to the Springfield Armory and later sold as relics. One of these is in the Nunnemacher Collection (no. N3601) in the Milwaukee Public Museum. It has an octagonal barrel 34 and 3/4 inches long which has both front and rear sights. The caliber is .52. It was altered from the flintlock by enlarging the vent and screwing into this aperture a drumlike cylinder fitted with a nipple. The lock plate is engraved "H.E. Leman, Lancaster, Pa." The barrel is similarly stamped and also bears the word "Warranted". It is equipped with a set trigger."
- 'Guns on the Early Frontiers' by Carl P. Russell, page 138.

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm curious how many historical references we can find for the use of muzzleloaders in the American West during the 1870s-90s. For the moment let's exclude cap-and-ball revolvers ... I'm more interested in hearing about actual muzzle-loaders, not cylinder-loaders

For instance, here's a reference for a flintlock-to-percussion converted rifle being used by the Cheyenne in the 1870s:

"Lieutenant Clark, 2d U.S. Cavalry, took some specimens from the Cheyenne in 1876 which were sent to the Springfield Armory and later sold as relics. One of these is in the Nunnemacher Collection (no. N3601) in the Milwaukee Public Museum. It has an octagonal barrel 34 and 3/4 inches long which has both front and rear sights. The caliber is .52. It was altered from the flintlock by enlarging the vent and screwing into this aperture a drumlike cylinder fitted with a nipple. The lock plate is engraved "H.E. Leman, Lancaster, Pa." The barrel is similarly stamped and also bears the word "Warranted". It is equipped with a set trigger."
- 'Guns on the Early Frontiers' by Carl P. Russell, page 138.

Muzzleloaders would have seen continuous use , as far as Historical References I don't know but Black Powder, caps and lead were readily available in the 1870s-90s and there would be no real reason for an average Joe to upgrade just for taking game . New guns cost lots of $$. If a percussion shotgun or rifle did the job, most people would have just used it. They were tools to most people.

Audie Murphy grew up hunting with a muzzleloading long rifle because his family was dirt poor, and if he missed and wasted a ball, his dad smacked him around. It made him into a very good shot.

I'd bet a good number of .69 muskets and .58 rifle-muskets continued to be used on the Frontier into the 1900's as civilian shotguns and hunting rifles.

 

[tenngun]

We have many photos from the 1870s and 80s showing men with ml.
Then gun types such as the FDC that we know a lot about came from looking at surviving guns. Most were still in use well until the twentieth century.
When NMLRA was founded there wasn’t a replica industry. People could buy and shoot old guns, as there were plenty around. Appalachian gunsmiths were still building SMR well up in to the 1940s and English and Belgium makers were making new ml guns well into the 1960s.
A couple of years ago I was at a range shooting. There were three Hispanics guys barely able to speak English there shooting too. They came over to see my gun. And with my manure of Spanish and their barely English we managed to have a good conversation.
I let them shoot, and they loved it. One told how growing up his grandfather still hunted with an old ml, that was his great grandfathers gun.

 

[TDM]

Trade Guns were produced through out all the 1800’s. I forget the exact end date, but I think it extended into the early 1900’s.

 

[user 56333]

Muzzleloaders would have seen continuous use , as far as Historical References I don't know but Black Powder, caps and lead were readily available in the 1870s-90s and there would be no real reason for an average Joe to upgrade just for taking game . New guns cost lots of $$. If a percussion shotgun or rifle did the job, most people would have just used it. They were tools to most people.

Oh yes you're right, I wasn't here to question whether they were actually still in use post-1860s; I'm sure they were. I was just curious to find specific historical references to guns, as it's always interesting for me to see just what exactly was being used in a particular time and place.

We have many photos from the 1870s and 80s showing men with ml.

Where have you seen such photos? Care to point me in the right direction?

Trade Guns were produced through out all the 1800’s. I forget the exact end date, but I think it extended into the early 1900’s.

Would they have still been muzzleloaders in the later period though? I know that there were guys (sometimes illegally) trading cartridge repeaters to indians from the 1870s onwards ... and some of these guns ended up being in wars against the US military.

For instance, here's a photo of a Lakota man holding a Remington-Keene.

 

[tenngun]

Unfortunately no I can’t. I used to have the ‘Old West’ series put out by Time life in the 1970s. Mostly picture books with brief write ups. They were full of photos from the west. However I no longer have the books and don’t know how I would find the images on google. As there are hundreds of thousands of old west photos randomly presented when you google old west photos. Some I recognized from the books that I read,reread,and just looked through till I had almost all of their spines worn out

 

[Notchy Bob]

@Crableg ,

That's a really good question, and one that interests me. My primary shooting interest is muzzle-loaders, but the ones that have been getting my attention lately have been the "late" ones... those that were still in use through the western Indian wars and beyond. There is a lot of information out there, but a lot of it is not well dated, and it tends to be scattered. Some of what you are looking for is inferred rather than specifically stated. Two really good references are Guns of the Western Indian Wars, by R. Stephen Dorsey, and Documenting the Weapons of the Little Bighorn, by Wendell Grangaard.

What really got me started on this was a series of posts by forum buddy @pamtnman , who commissioned a replica of the rifle carried by Little Bat Garnier, a scout in Nebraska and the Dakotas during the Sioux Indian Wars. He carried a single shot percussion "Indian rifle" by Folsom. One remarkable feature about the original rifle (and the copy) is the use of an adjustable Henry repeating rifle rear sight. Otherwise, it is a fairly ordinary looking "Indian rifle." If you search "Folsom rifle" on this forum, you should find pictures and more information. Baptiste "Little Bat" Garnier was well liked and highly respected as a scout. He led an eventful and interesting life, but was sadly murdered in a barroom altercation, I believe in 1900. I think his rifle is on display in the museum at Fort Robinson. Maybe pamtnman will tell us more... building the replica is his story, not mine.

I have not found anything about Antonio Lopez except this:


This is from Harper's New Monthly Magazine, Vol. 59 (1879). Note the "...old-fashioned St. Louis rifle leaning against the wall."

There is a lot of photographic evidence, but studio images may feature old guns as props, and many are not dated. Take a look at these fellows:


Left to right are Elisha P. Green, Wild Bill Hickok, Bill Cody, Texas Jack Omohundro, and Eugene Overton. I see one rolling block and one rifle I can't postively identify, but there are at least three muzzle-loaders. The photo was taken by R.H. Furman in 1872. I wouldn't doubt that these rifles are studio props, but I can't prove that. I have no doubt these fellows would at least know how to handle the rifles they are carrying.

The rifle Harry Yount is holding somehow does not strike me as a studio prop:



The photographer was not likely to have carried a ten or twelve pound rifle into the mountains for a prop:


I don't know when those photos were taken, but I think probably in the late 1860's or seventies. Harry Yount was the first game ranger in Yellowstone Park, although Charles "Buffalo" Jones frequently gets the credit for that.

I don't know the date of this photo, either:



These are unidentified Colorado frontiersmen. If anybody reading this can provide any additional information, I would appreciate hearing it. I think the fellow on the left is probably carrying a muzzleloader. I'm guessing the one on the right seems to have a Springfield over his shoulder, but whether it's a rifle musket or a trapdoor, I can't determine.

This rifle belonged to "Cougar Dave" Anderson (not to be confused with "Cougar Dave" Lewis, who was from the same general area):


Anderson was a packer and guide in Idaho in the late 19th and possibly early twentieth century. I've been unable to find anything about him, despite having a post up on this forum for at least a couple of years now. This rifle is in Cisco's Gallery, in Coeur d'Alene. I'm sure it was used post-Civil War, but have not nailed any dates.

These California old-timers got together in the 1880's for a group photo near San Bernardino:



The three in back are old men, holding the rifles they carried in their younger days. The young fellow in the right foreground is probably using the antique rifle as a prop. However, there they are.

There is a lot more, but it would take all day and then some to pull it together.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[TDM]

Thanks very much for posting that great info @Notchy Bob! Very interesting.

 

[TDM]

Would they have still been muzzleloaders in the later period though? I know that there were guys (sometimes illegally) trading cartridge repeaters to indians from the 1870s onwards ... and some of these guns ended up being in wars against the US military.

Yes, they were muzzle loaders and while some were percussion, flintlocks continued in production till the end. The design remain relatively unchanged for over 160 years.

 

[RanchRoper]

Hickok looks drunk.


Great photos!

 

[TDM]

Probably was.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I've been thinking about this a little, and remembered a couple more.

This is one of Chief Joseph's rifles:





This was his hunting rifle while he was exiled in Oklahoma between 1878 and 1885. It is reportedly .45 caliber, and has all the earmarks of a Henry Leman trade rifle. I would say the barrel was cut down. For a little more about it, check this link: Chief Joseph's Hunting Rifle

In the November 1956 issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine, there was a very nice article by a Dr. R.A. Duncan, from Texas. I think Dr. Duncan was an elderly man at the time he wrote the memoir, and I don't think he stated any dates. However, I got the impression that the events he described occurred in the 1890's, or possibly a little earlier. The title was, "Old Joe, M-L's, and Hydrophobia." The central character was a man identified only as "Old Joe." This man lived in the woods near the Brazos River, and he evidently subsisted entirely by hunting and gathering. He was a muzzle loader to the end. John Barsotti illustrated the article with his incomparable pen-and-ink drawings. This is Old Joe:



The portrait was based on Dr. Duncan's eye-witness description. If you are an NMLRA member (and you oughta be, dadgummit...) you have online access to digitized renderings of this and every other issue of Muzzle Blasts that has ever been published on the NMLRA website, and you can read the whole article. It's worth reading, especially for you Texas boys.

One last item is a letter and an ad placed by the gunsmith, Carlos Gove, either in a newspaper or a city directory some time in the 1870's:


It is very fine print and hard to read, but that's the best I could do. The image is reproduced from one in Frank Seller's article, "The Feuding Gunsmiths of Denver" in the ASAC Bulletin 39: 12-22

Note that Mr. Gove was selling Winchester repeating rifles, along with Sharps and Maynard rifles, in addition to custom built muzzle-loading rifles and "Leman's Sporting and Indian Rifles." Not to mention caps, shot, lead, powder flasks, shot pouches, and so forth. So, we infer from this that muzzle loaders were still in use in Colorado in the 1870's.

I'm sure there is more. I'm looking forward to seeing what other forum members can show us.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Widows Son]

Here’s a picture of Appalachian people in the early 20th century. You can see the powder horn and rifle on the ladies shoulder.

 

[TDM]

That is one Tough looking Woman.

 

[user 56333]

@Notchy Bob and @Widows Son
Fantastic posts guys, thanks so much for taking the time to share that info. Just the kind of thing I was looking for.

 

[pamtnman]

Here’s a picture of Appalachian people in the early 20th century. You can see the powder horn and rifle on the ladies shoulder.

View attachment 188251

She of gun carrying perfection looks like my mom did when I brought home a bad grade. She probably shot the way my mom hit, too. And my mom was not a bad shot when she was younger. These are all very cool historic photos people are bringing up here. Thank you

 

[Uncle Miltie]

The Vincent rifles many are fond of were made by J.C. Vincent in Ohio until just before he passed in 1918. Some folks feel "real traditional" muzzleloading died out in 1865, these fellows didn't get that memo until after 1896 when this photo was taken.

 

[Widows Son]

Speaking for myself, I don’t believe 19th century people had the gun culture that we have today. They were seen more as tools to do a job. They didn’t always update their arms just because more modern ones were available. Some could not afford to, some didn’t see a need to and a few just didn’t want to.

I have a copy of the 1923 Montgomery Ward catalog, and there are still replacement percussion locks for sale in it. No doubt they were ’new old stock’ but there must have been a market for them.

I remember my grandad, who was a boy in the early 1900’s, telling me about the “family gun”, which was a break action shotgun.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I don't want to wear out my welcome here, but I was browsing through some of my saved pictures, and found this one:


The only caption I can find is "Dewitt Iowa Hunters." Dewitt is way over in the eastern part of the state, not far from the Illinois border. I don't have a date for the picture, but I'm guessing 1860's*, based on the hats and the general appearance of the photograph, so it may not be late enough in the 19th century to meet @Crableg 's criteria. I don't remember where I found it, but I thought it was a pretty cool picture. I believe Iowa was considered a "western" state back in those days, and in fact the Spirit Lake Massacre, which preceded the 1862 Dakota War by five years and may have included some of the same participants, was primarily in northern Iowa and the southernmost part of Minnesota.

There is a lot to see in this picture. The rifle held by the man on the left looks like a real beauty. It is relatively short, but very ornate. I can't tell if the lock was converted from flint or not. His powder horn looks very plain, by comparison. This photo also confirms that band collar shirts were in fact worn back then, so they are not a reenactorism after all. It shows us that not everybody who carried a rifle in the old west was a mountain man or trapper.

The next picture, showing objects from the Minnesota Historical Society collections, is also relevant to this thread:



Note the caption, "...dating to the 1880's." We infer that Mr. Crow was using a muzzle-loader at that late date if he felt the need to carry this pouch and horn. If you go to THIS PAGE on the MHS Collections website, you can read a more complete description, and you can enlarge the picture to get a good look at the details. I find this outfit very appealing, because of its simplicity. The tie-down thong for the flap is not something you see much now, but it is really very practical. Leave it untied if you expect to be reaching into the pouch. It should be quick to untie when the need arises, yet it looks very secure. There is no button to get lost. A couple of other features that I've seen on native-made pouches is the use of brass jack chain for suspending accessories, although the pickwire here is suspended from an iron chain. Jack chain must have been stocked by the traders, although I don't recall seeing it listed on any of the inventories I have read. I've looked for it, too, after seeing this pouch. The Indians got it from somewhere.

The other feature I think is characteristic of native-made pouches is the use of thongs to tie the shoulder-strap to the pouch. White folks seem to prefer having the strap securely stitched on the back of the pouch body, but all of the Indian pouches I can think of have these thongs to affix the shoulder strap. I can see this as a very practical tradition, for a couple of reasons. First, you can adjust the length of the shoulder strap to accommodate winter or summer clothes just by shortening or lengthening the tie-thongs, or punch more holes in the strap to tie it in a different place. You don't need a buckle. Second, if the strap gets snagged on something, the thongs will be the first thing to break. You then just re-tie the strap with a new thong, and you're good to go. On the other hand, if the strap is stitched on and it gets stressed to the breaking point, you'll either have a broken strap, or it will tear out the body of the bag where it is stitched. Either way, you'll have a tedious repair job to do before you carry that pouch again. This is really a pretty smart design.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

*ADDENDUM 1/8/23: I'm pretty sure I snagged that photo of the Dewitt, Iowa hunters (above) from the Rock Island Auction website, from an article about powder horns. Here is a link to that page: Historic Powder Horns

On that page, they note that the photo is from the 1870's.

Notchy Bob

 

[pamtnman]

In the 1860s Iowa was still considered by many to be Indian country. President Lincoln reportedly greeted a group of visiting Plains Indians *at the White House* with a series of either insulting or naive comments, and ending with “When go back Iowa?”
So, Notchy Bob, could be late 1860s.