Unusual

[Tinker2]

I got this at a gunshow. No marking on it anywhere that I can see.
The gentleman I got it from did not know anything about it other
then he liked it too. I paid a bunch for it.

Barrel is held to the tang with a tapered pin.
The tang is drilled and taped for some type of a peep sight maybe.
About a .350 caliber, maybe less, no more then.
Five groove rifling.
Rate of Twist of is 1:34
Barrel is 26 inches long, 3/4 across the flats. 41.5 overall length.
13 1/4 length of pull.
Adjustable trigger. I think anyways, I have not moved the screw behind
the trigger nor taken it apart to look yet.
German silver fittings.
The barrel flats are seven sided. Not octagon. The bottom two flats are
wider then the other 5 flats.

What is it? Who made it? When was it made?

What is the muzzle rounded at the front for?
No holes in it like for a false muzzle. Did they have some other loading
aid or apparatus that fit over the muzzle. any pictures?

Any ideas about the missing peep sight?

It needs some TLC but I will post those problems on the Builder Bench.

Pictures

Thanks for any information and comments.


Tinker2

 

[BadHeart]

Havent got a clue but very cool nun the less. great find

 

[Zonie]

Tinker2

Without a name marked somewhere on the gun it is impossible to say who made your gun.
There were quite a few who made rifles similar to this.

The receiver is very reminiscent of the swivel barrel rifles popular in the 1840-1860 time period.

The back action lock also fits that period as does the shape of the buttplate and the cap-box.

The round diameter on the front of the barrel was made for a guide to aid loading which also explains why there is almost no muzzle crown at the bore.
These guides were often unrifled so they didn't require pinning to time the rifling grooves like a true "false muzzle" does.

If you could determine the rifling twist and the depth of the grooves it would give a good indication of whether the gun was made for shooting patched roundballs or slugs.

It's a nice rifle and you should be happy to own it.

 

[nutcracker]

Looks like a lightweight version of a Bench Rest Rifle. They look nearly identical but weigh between 20-40 lbs.Most of them had a tang sight, & some provision for a false muzzle or similar object. Research some of these makers, Morgan James of Utica , NY, Norman Brockway, VT, Nelson Lewis of Troy New York..I would guess circa, 1860-1880.They were also used as sniper rifles during the Civil War.

 

[Tinker2]

The round diameter on the front of the barrel was made for a guide to aid loading which also explains why there is almost no muzzle crown at the bore.
These guides were often unrifled so they didn't require pinning to time the rifling grooves like a true "false muzzle" does.

Zonie

Where can I find more on the “ loading aid” pictures? is it something that can be made?

“If you could determine the rifling twist and the depth of the grooves it would give a good indication of whether the gun was made for shooting patched roundballs or slugs.”

As best I can tell.
Twist = 1 in 34
Depth of grooves .007

I did shoot this a little but it needs fixing before much shooting, breech
plug, Barrel to tang, tapered pin all need work.

The seven sided barrel can’t be to common is it?

“It's a nice rifle and you should be happy to own it.”

Yes, I am quite happy with it. :grin:



Thanks for the help.

Tinker2

 

[Zonie]

I was hoping that Ned Roberts "THE MUZZLE-LOADING CAP LOCK RIFLE" would show some photos of the loading guide but unfortunately it only shows the true "False Muzzle" type which, although similar, are more complicated with their pin's.
Many of the true False Muzzles also had guides machined into them which guided strips of paper to make a 'paper patched bullet' while the bullet was being rammed thru them.

The guides I was thinking of look somewhat similar but are not as elaborate.

If you can find a copy of that book, there are several different rifles shown which are somewhat similar to yours. Not exactly the same but close enough to be interesting.

Yes, a 7 sided barrel is different although it does look somewhat like a 8 sided octagon barrel with the bottom flat machined with a concave cut for the ramrod to me.

The 1:34 twist with a .350 caliber could be for either bullets or patched roundballs but I'm betting roundballs based on the .007 depth of rifling.

Then again, I've been proven wrong before so this wouldn't be the first time. :grin:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have seen such things described as "buggy rifles" that were made, supposedly, to be broken down and carried under the buggy seat for a shooting match after services on Sunday.

The false muzzle was likely a sleeve of wood with a bore-sized and slightly coned section to get the ball aligned and started.

 

[Tinker2]

Yes, a 7 sided barrel is different although it does look somewhat like a 8 sided octagon barrel with the bottom flat machined with a concave cut for the ramrod to me.

When measured, The bottom two flats are wider then the other 5 flats.
The groove cut into the barrel for the ram rod is not as wide as the flats are.
I don’t think it could have ever been octagon.

But then, the truth be known, I didn’t notice it till I had it some time.
I don’t know, maybe it is more common then I think.



Thanks for all your help, it is much appreciated.
Tinker2

 

[Tinker2]

I have seen such things described as "buggy rifles" that were made, supposedly, to be broken down and carried under the buggy seat for a shooting match after services on Sunday.

Buggy rifle was my first thought.

“The false muzzle was likely a sleeve of wood”

Well that would make it easier to make one. Would they look like a false muzzle or did they look deferent?

Any ideas about the missing peep sight? How it was made, what it looked like? I have not had the threaded hole in the tang checked but it looks like it is 90 degrees from the barrel and maybe a size 12 X 40 or so, not checked yet. I remember, I think some scope mount being on the tang too.

The adjustable trigger screw I mentioned is a way of taking up the slack in the trigger only I think.


Thanks for all the help.

Tinker2

 

[Stumpkiller]

As for the peep, can you get a detail image of the mounting accomidations? I have seen some of that era that had a long cantilever peep and others that are right at the tang.

 

[Dphar]

The muzzle is turned round for a guide starter.
Probably looked like this.

Its unlikely it was made with a wooden one. The fit and the alignment is too critical for wood to provide durability.
Not saying there was never one made of wood but one must immediately ask if its original to the gun or a later replacement. Making one from wood would be as much work as a metal one and its not as durable or precise.
The round muzzle and the twist are definite Picket Bullet features.
It likely was used with a cloth patched Picket Bullet similar to this as well as round balls.

The one on the left shoots best.


The barrel is octagonal. The maker probably reshaped the flats on either side of the botton flats to make it look cleaner with a narrow edge on the RR groove.

They were made as takedowns for cleaning and so they would fit in a smaller case for travel by train, the common mode of transport after the Railroads were well developed.
With a picket and properly loading these rifles were pretty accurate to 300 yards or perhaps more but the bullet is pretty short for ranges past 300.
If it has provisions for a tang sight it was likely a dual purpose rifle for target or hunting and may have been used for Schuetzen.

See the "American Percussion Schuetzen Rifle" by Hamilton and Rowe and Ned Roberts "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle". Chapman's "Instructions to Young Marksmen Improved American Rifle". It was written in the 1840s and the last re-print I know of was by Bienfield in 1976.
This style were actually pretty common from the 1830s to 80s perhaps beyond.

Dan

 

[Zonie]

Yah Dan! That starter is the type I was looking for.

Actually, I need to have one of them made for my Schutzen one of these days.
My Schutzen has the same round end machined concentric with the bore that is shown on the gun in this topic's barrel.

 

[Dphar]

Yah Dan! That starter is the type I was looking for.

Actually, I need to have one of them made for my Schutzen one of these days.
My Schutzen has the same round end machined concentric with the bore that is shown on the gun in this topic's barrel.

Brass and bronze is so pricey that for a large diameter piece of rod its discouraging even in 12" lengths so if you decide to have one made the basic material could run over 100 bucks depending of the diameter needed. MSC sells bronze, I think the 660 alloy (?) is the cheapest its available in 13" lengths. Then most is machined away....

This device instantly improved the picket bullet accuracy from an older 40 caliber Green Mountain barrel with the 48 twist.

Dan

 

[flintlock75]

This rifle looks alot like a "Wesson Buggy Rifle",
I will check my catalogs tonight and look for a match.

 

[Tinker2]

As for the peep, can you get a detail image of the mounting accomidations? I have seen some of that era that had a long cantilever peep and others that are right at the tang.

This is some pictures of the tang. The two holes on both ends bolt to the
trigger plate. the one in the middle is 90 degrees from the bore and is
treaded for, as best I can tell yet, a 10 X 36 or so. You can tell by the
picture that it is a fine thread. I am guessing that it is for a peep sight?
In the side view I have a tapered pin in it for orientation.

Thanks
Tinker2

 

[Tinker2]

Wow, Dan

Thanks for such nice clear pictures. The information is outstanding.


If I were to have one made and brass is so expensive, would not steel or
aluminum work? Is brass what is PC/HC?

Am I right in thinking that the inside hole would be the diameter of the
grooves and the top is tapered inside to start the patched roundballs or slugs?

Is there anything else that I need to know to have one made besides the
size of my barrel?



Thanks, it is all much appreciated.
Tinker2

 

[Stumpkiller]

Lookin like a peep to me. I have seen German rifles with such things.

Here are some ideas.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/238180/

 

[Tinker2]

I may have found the maker
"Buggy Rifle" Made By M. S. Hendrick, West Aurora, Illinois” IS LIKE MINE

Buggy rifle

What do you think?

William Alexander

 

[Cowboy]

I looked in my book titled: GUNMAKERS of ILLINOIS 1683-1900 Volume II, by Curtis L. Johnson

On pg.240 there is a Hendricks, Merton S. listed. It states that he was well known as a maker of fine breech loading rifles, and that he made percussion rifles early in his long career.

He was born in NY and came to Aurora IL. in 1868. He was a Machinist by trade and also continued to make and repair guns until his death in 1930.

The book shows a picture that is described as a Percussion false-muzzle target rifle by Merton S. Hendricks, Aurora, Illinois.

The rifle shown has the exact looking buttplate, triggerguard, Back action lock, Creedmoor looking tangsight, bottom flat of the barrel concaved to except the ramrod which looks identical to yours. Even the exact same patchbox.

There is no doubt in my mind that he made your rifle! It is also a two piece like yours. No forearm but rather just a barrel attached to the rear portion of the stock. Also shows a couple examples of the molds he made for the rifles. One mold is a three cavity mold that has 2 cavities for RB and 1 cavity for conical type bullet.

Since he came to Aurora IL. in 1868, your rifle was probably built no earlier than that date.

You have a nice rifle with a nice piece of history to it. I hope this has helped.

Respectfully, Cowboy :hatsoff:

 

[OLUT]

For info only .... I am not an expert, but have seen many percussion guns over the years, so here's my guess.The tang sight hole is for a typical "lollipop" sight that screws into the hole in the tang. They were very common and I have several guns with them (I'd post pictures, but that is not easy for me). Just Google search "percussion lolipop sight" to see images. The furniture on the gun is very common commercially available parts such as trigger guard, butt plate, patchbox, etc and were used by MANy gunmakers of that era. The unique thing is that the barrel is so much smaller than the "breakoff on your patent breech; it almost seems like the barrel was a later retrofit