Unidentified Weapon

Discussion in 'Firearm Identification' started by Claus1946, Jul 8, 2019.

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  1. Jul 8, 2019 #1

    Claus1946

    Claus1946

    Claus1946

    32 Cal

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    llo to the forum,
    I'm new here and in fact know very few about weapons. I'm looking for information about this pistol (family property since many years).

    What kind of weapon is it?
    How old is it?
    Where does it come from?

    I already posted my question in a German forum and one of the members advised me to post it here as well.
    The guys already found out:
    • Capslock
    • First punch is similar to this italian weapon (https://www.czernys.com/a-88/?o=78139)
    • Probably military use oder private propery (because of the ornaments)
    • Presumably genuine
    Can anyone help?

    Greetings from Germany and thanks in advance for your help!
    C
    P1070217.JPG P1070218.JPG P1070221.JPG P1070222.JPG P1070223.JPG P1070226.JPG oben.jpg
     
  2. Jul 8, 2019 #2

    dave_person

    dave_person

    dave_person

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    Hi Claus,
    Your photos are not sufficiently clear to identify the barrel marks. The barrel at least could also be Spanish, however, there does not appear to a city mark closer to the tang. It could be Neopolitan. I do not believe the cross has any direct connection with the Vatican or pope other than a sign of Catholic Christianity. The kingdom of Naples was closely associated with Spain until well into the 19th century so the similarities are understandable. My first impression is that an old barrel was used to make a much more modern restock. The lock and side plate look like inexpensive castings and so does the trigger guard. The stock is very crude and certainly is not of the quality of work produced by Spain or southern Italy during the 19th century.

    dave
     
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  3. Jul 8, 2019 #3

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Zonie

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    Claus 1946, welcome to the forum.

    From the pictures you show the only mark that looks somewhat like a proof mark is the one that looks somewhat like a crown over something in the form of a square (or possibly letters?)
    There is a Belgian proof mark with a crown over a large, overlapping E and L. If the square is a large E over L then it may be a mark from Liege.
    It would be very unusual for there to be only one Belgian proof mark as they usually stamp several different marks on a gun. One of the more common Belgian proof marks is an oval containing the letters E, L and G.

    The style of the pistol and percussion hammer tell me it was most likely made between 1835 and 1855.
    Although the style of the stock and the brass grip cap is similar to military pistols of the time, those pistols rarely had decorated locks or side plates like your pistol has. This leads me to believe that it was made for civilians.
     
  4. Jul 8, 2019 #4

    dave_person

    dave_person

    dave_person

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    Hi Zonie (Jim),
    This gun is not Belgian. What you are referring to is not a proof mark. There is a makers stamp, which should be readable if the OP provides a decent photo. The mark before it is likely another maker identifier.

    dave
     
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  5. Jul 9, 2019 #5

    Claus1946

    Claus1946

    Claus1946

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    Thank you very much for your help! I took some more pictures - I hope those are better (especially the punches).
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Jul 9, 2019 #6

    TFoley

    TFoley

    TFoley

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    to hang on the wall.

    I believe it to be a complete fabrication. It is overwhelmingly crude in almost every aspect imaginable. I'd like to take a look at the screws holding it together, if such is possible.
     
  7. Jul 9, 2019 #7

    hawkeye2

    hawkeye2

    hawkeye2

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    I'm totally in agreement and the tang has been welded to the barrel (a repair?) at some more recent time.
     
  8. Jul 9, 2019 #8

    Zonie

    Zonie

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    Thank you for the added pictures but they don't help with identifying the possible location the gun was made.

    Often the proof marks marked on a gun to show it has passed proof testing are located on the underside or bottom of the barrel. Have you removed the barrel from the stock and examined its underside?

    Removing the barrel on this pistol would involve removing the lock screws and the screw that goes thru the tang at the rear of the barrel and then removing the pin which is located about 25-30 mm from the front of the stock. This pin can be driven out by using another pin that is slightly smaller than the stock pin. Use very light hammer blows to drive the barrel pin out of the stock. Once this pin and the screws are removed, the barrel should lift straight up, out of the wood.
    When unscrewing the lock screws and the tang screw, use a screw driver with a blade that closely fits the slot in the screws or you will damage them.

    Look for proof marks at the rear of the barrel.
     
  9. Jul 10, 2019 #9

    Feltwad

    Feltwad

    Feltwad

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    The pistol barrel is Spanish or Italian ,the tombstone is the makers name , the fleur de l usual there are three with the cross above Image enclose of flintlock converted shotgun barrel in my collection .
    Feltwad

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Jul 10, 2019 #10

    Claus1946

    Claus1946

    Claus1946

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    Hello and thank you again! Here are some more pictures. The screws are obviously new. I took of the barrel. The barrel and the wood seem old to me, but the screws (all of them) and the spring (or whatever it is?) aren't.
    I'm confused know. Is this a decoration weapon made of old parts? Or an old destroyed weapon repurposed to a decoration piece? Or is it a complete fake?
     

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  11. Jul 10, 2019 #11

    dave_person

    dave_person

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    Hi Claus,
    I think it is a complete fake using old parts and a more modern fabricated lock. I also think the barrel marks are fake as well. None are stamped as deeply as original Spanish or Italian marks. The barrel is very crude and not up to a standard anywhere close to what I expect from Spain or southern Italy. In fact, it almost looks to be cast. The soldered or welded barrel tang makes me think the barrel was something else repurposed to make a gun. It is a wall hanger if anything.

    dave
     
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  12. Jul 10, 2019 #12

    TFoley

    TFoley

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  13. Jul 11, 2019 #13

    EC121

    EC121

    EC121

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    Is that a hole on the underside near the barrel lug?
     
  14. Jul 11, 2019 #14

    Griz44Mag

    Griz44Mag

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    Must be one of those relief vents that have been discussed in another thread.
    That would go along with the charring in the barrel channel.
    Some of the wood in the top end appears to be fresh carved as well.
     
  15. Jul 11, 2019 #15

    SamTex1949

    SamTex1949

    SamTex1949

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    Did you take a photo of the lock removed ? That big screw/ coiled wire is definitely "unique" !
    The other question is how much did you pay for this item ?
     
  16. Jul 11, 2019 #16

    Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave

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    Yeah it's a "wall hanger" made for tourists. Modern screws and the modern coil spring to work the lock are a confirmation.

    LD
     
  17. Jul 11, 2019 #17

    Zonie

    Zonie

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    The latest group of pictures leads me to believe the barrel is made from a casting. Note the underlug is cast in place and the surface roughness on the bottom of the barrel. The coiled "mainspring" is also something that would be used in a "toy" rather than a real firearm. Yes, the spring will make the hammer fall but not with enough force to reliably fire a percussion cap.

    Real hand held firearms never use a casting for the barrel. They tend to blow apart when the gun is fired.

    Both of these leads me to think this is a "gun" that was meant to be hung on the wall as a decoration.
     
  18. Jul 11, 2019 #18

    TFoley

    TFoley

    TFoley

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    I respectfully refer you to post #6.
     
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  19. Jul 12, 2019 #19

    Barry Strickland

    Barry Strickland

    Barry Strickland

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    I find looking at mysteries like this fascinating. If you note the picture of the nipple bolster and the cutout in the lock plate they are not even related to each other. I wonder why the butt cap is decently inlet compared to the rest of the pistol parts. I wonder if you stuck a rod down the barrel if it would go past the middle wedding ring. I wonder if the hole in the bottom of the barrel was a relief vent when a cap was popped, A child's toy? I believe the barrel channel was charred out with a red hot iron instead of using chisels and scrapers look at the char on the upper sides of the channel. Interesting!
     
  20. Jul 12, 2019 #20

    Claus1946

    Claus1946

    Claus1946

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    The big screw is new as well. I didn't pay anything for it, I found it in my fathers stuff who died years ago. He was not sure if it was a toy for kids or not.
     
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