Unfinished Hawken kit

[Kansas Jake]

Today I received an unfinished Hawken kit with most of the parts and a set of blue prints for a Hawken that was at the Nebraska State Historical Society Museum. A friend gave it to me. He had received it as an unfinished project a number of years ago and had not worked on it. He passed it on to me in the hope that I will be able to finish. The lock, trigger, cap and a few other parts have been inleted. I guess I will see if I have some talent as was discussed in another thread. Some picture follow.

 

[Kansas Jake]

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I think the kit may be about 20-30 or more years old. The barrel appears to be 54 cal.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Here is a picture of the mark on the bottom of the barrel.

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I don't know who made the kit, if it was a package, or ordered as parts to build the rifle. Ideas and suggestions are welcome.

 

[plmeek]

I don't know who made the kit, if it was a package, or ordered as parts to build the rifle. Ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Not sure that I can help you much. I would need to see close-ups of the parts to be certain. It appears you have a collection of parts and not an identifiable kit.

The lock looks like one that Dixie Gun Works used to sell if it has cast-in engraving. If it doesn't have engraving, then it might be a Griffith Tool Co lock. If the latter, it should have GTC on the inside of the plate.

The triggers look like those designed by Ron Long.

I can't tell much about the breech plug. The "5X" mark is on the bottom of the breech plug, not the barrel. The dash mark is a witness mark so the breech plug can be re-installed correctly if it is ever removed. The witness mark and the "5X" mark were likely made by the person that installed the breech plug in the barrel.

Some barrel makers would put their name or trade mark on a barrel flat. Others would put their mark on the face of the breech end of the barrel. In this case, it might be covered up by the breech plug.

If you were to count the number of lands/grooves and accurately measure the rate of twist in the rifling, it might indicate some possible barrel makers, but may not be definitive.

The trigger guard and butt plate are typical commercial parts available from a number of suppliers.

The lock mortise is so hacked up, I can't tell if it was ever pre-inlet. These stocks were available from different suppliers shaped but not inlet as well as shaped and partially inlet.

The set of Wayne Robidoux blue prints are the best that anybody has published and may be worth $25-50 if all six pages are there and in good shape. They are for a late Sam Hawken half stock rifle, though, and not the full stock parts set you have.

If the barrel, breech & tang, lock, and triggers are properly inlet, it would be time to install barrel lugs or staples for the barrel keys. Then you would want to drill, tap, and install the tang bolts and lock bolt. Butt plate, ramrod pipes and muzzle cap would follow, though it looks like the muzzle cap is already fitted.

 

[Kansas Jake]

From looking at it the stock appears to be one where the barrel only was inletted and the rest was hand done. The barrel wedge lugs are installed and inletted, but not drilled. The tang and trigger inletting has also been done. The stock has a nice amount for striping.

The lock has the engraving on it and no identifying marks on the back side. The set trigger is marked roller T3. The cast steel butt plate has a price of $8.95 written on in with a marker.

The barrel is .962 across the flats and no swamp or taper and is .54 caliber, with 8 lands and grooves.

The plans include 11 pages plus one old "blue print" copy that is faded out.

 

[Col. Batguano]

That looks like an awful lot of set back for the front of the muzzle cap from the muzzle. Not sure what is "correct" for Plains Rifles / Hawkens, but for LR's the set back is usually around or less than 1/8". For sure do your research as to what is correct and decide on it (meaning shortening the barrel if that's what's called for) before you cut in your sights.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I hadn't noticed the set back on the muzzle cap in my looking at it, but you are correct. It just doesn't look right. There is a piece of the fore stock that was cut off to fit the cap. Do you think a repair could be done without cutting the barrel? Also, might a slightly longer muzzle cap be made to correct the overhang.

BTW, the Robidoux plans are for a half stock Hawken.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Yes you could certainly make a longer muzzle cap, (and that would correct it) but it already looks like you're pushing 2 inches. What do the plans call for? I actually think cutting off the barrel (or filing it back) and re-crowning it would be easier.

 

[galamb]

The "roller T3" may mean that it's a trigger that was built/reworked by Bob Roller.

If that's the case then this was almost certainly not a "kit" but rather a collection of parts bought individually to build according to the plans.

Roller triggers (and locks) are sought after - considered to be on the shelf "above the top shelf" in terms of quality.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I looked at the set trigger again today and it is a Roller with the number 79. The lock is marked Italy in very small letters on the back side. I think I would really like to salvage this rifle with the parts and stock, but the stock has a couple of major mistakes. The muzzle cap is set back too far. About 1/2 an inch. Also the butt plat is partially inletted, but needs some work see the picture.

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Also, the stock has the more square cheek rest rather than the crescent.

 

[Kansas Jake]

picture of the left side of stock

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The stock would have a pull of about 14 1/2 inches as it currently sits. If I remove 1/4-3/8" to get a flat fit on the butt plate, I think I would still have enough pull. What do you guys think?

I could potentially do a couple of things. I could make the gun a half stock, but the cheek piece wouldn't be the crescent style. I could also try to repair the mistake on the muzzle cap or make a longer one.

What would you guys do. Another option would be a new stock.

 

[Herb]

I handled, measured and photographed the "Robidoux" Hawken at Lincoln a year ago, and another one in a private museum in Cheyenne, WY. You have a good parts set. I have built about 25 Hawkens from parts sets and blanks, including copies as exact as I could make them of Bridger and Carson's Hawkens. Also full stock Hawkens. I'd cut an inch off that butt stock to about 13 1/2" length of pull and shorten the back of the cheek piece. You could consider pulling the nose cap and gluing a filler at the back and then the front end of the stock to move the cap forward.

 

[nhmoose]

picture of the left side of stock

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The stock would have a pull of about 14 1/2 inches as it currently sits. If I remove 1/4-3/8" to get a flat fit on the butt plate, I think I would still have enough pull. What do you guys think?

I could potentially do a couple of things. I could make the gun a half stock, but the cheek piece wouldn't be the crescent style. I could also try to repair the mistake on the muzzle cap or make a longer one.

What would you guys do. Another option would be a new stock.

Not to me it should be 13 1/2 to 13 3/4 to fit me right.

The over lapping stock needs to be slimmed down to the plate IMHO.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Thanks Herb and nhmoose. I've been out of town a couple of days and didn't have access to computer service or on my phone.

Just for your information I measured the stock pull from the front trigger on the set triggers to the back of the butt plate in the center for the 14 1/2 inches. If there is a better way, let me know.

Also, the butt plate casting is somewhat rounded on the inside edge where it meets the back of the stock. Does this need to be filed flat to get a good even fit to the butt of the stock or does it need to be inletted into a rounded groove and sanded to make a tight fit. On the few other kits and guns I've worked on the butt plate was flat on the inside edge.

Herb with your encouragement, I think I've decided to finish these part including the stock.

 

[nhmoose]

I would file it flat, make it easier to fit. Most butt plates I have fit were the other way concaved away from the stock they were cast that way.

 

[Kansas Jake]

That is what I was thinking. Thanks nhmoose.

 

[44-henry]

I would definitely remove the breech plug and make sure it was fit properly before going any further. If it was not you might consider shortening the barrel from the breech to avoid patching the stock at the nose cap. Of course this approach is easier if you have access to a good metal lathe.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I don't have a lathe or easy access to one. I also will not be pulling the breach plug as it is well fit and if you notice in one of my early pictures it has been aligned with a witness mark. I may run a small camera down the barrel when I get a change to inspect from the inside.

Pulling the plug would most likely result in more issues than it would solve.

 

[Larry Akers]

Along with the tips of others, I agree with Herb--I'd shorten the stock to achieve a pull of 13-1/2 to 13-5/8" measured from the front trigger. The cheek-piece can be re-shaped to a beavertail shape. There is a lot of wood to remove along the fore-end as it looks very "slab-sided". Study as many genuine Hawken guns and photos as you can. You want to end up with a Hawken and not just another "plains rifle". Good luck with your project.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Thanks LJA. I agree the fore stock looks slab sided and needs much trimming. I'm looking foreword to the challenge on this project. I'll also need to do a little gap repair on the lock inlet and the tang area needs work and the tang may need to be bent a little to get a nice fit. It is a cast tang, so will probably need some heat to get that done.