Ultimate pistol

[Zonie]

It's just my opinion but anyone who wants modern cartridge velocities and energies out of their pistols should go out and buy one of them.
Black powder and muzzleloaders are not going to give them what they want.

If they want to find out what life was like before the advent of such modern things and live with the limitations that such things have they should understand that many of the things we take for granted today will not be possible.

For me, limiting myself to one well placed shot at short range by shooting muzzleloading rifles or pistols is not only interesting but it is fun.

I am willing to give up modern ballistics just to understand and appreciate what my forefathers dealt with.

This means using pistols for small game at short ranges, not trying to come up with something that never existed for something that was seldom (if ever) done but, to each their own.

 

[himem777]

OK Zonie thanks. Thats why I like this forum, to learn. I thought that you could hit that range, but if you can not do it, then you can not do it. Thanks again I guess my 62 will have to do.

 

[oletymepreacher]

Elk are tough animals, many times tougher than deer. I have seen elk killed with everything from 30-30's to elephant guns. The guy who used the 30-30 is an excellent shot, and shoots for the spine in the neck. I have tracked elk in my misspent youth while working as a guide, that traveled many miles shot in the lungs with a 30-06, albeit a bit too far back.

Handgun shooting of big game was allowed here in Colorado in about 1980. At that time you had to qualify, four out of six shots at 50 yards with a .357 minimum, hitting the 11" bull. Try that sometime, just to see. At that time, the shooter was NOT allowed any type of rest for the gun or hands, but two hand control of the pistol was OK. These were reasonable requirements, but have been abandoned today. With elk, I wouldn't point a .357 at one that was not already injured. Maybe a .44 magnum or a hot loaded .45 Colt.

I will stick to the rifle, a .54 muzzleloader with a healthy charge of 3F, or when CF, a .338 Mag. If you insist on a nuzzleloading pistol, I'd recommend a 16 inch barrel loaded at max. Elk have been killed with a .22 rimfire, but that doesn't make a .22 the ideal weapon. If you do go the pistol route, and if it is legal to do so, my recommendation is not to shoot past 15-20 yards. I've killed elk at this short range, and sneaking up to them is certainly doable. And more fun.

 

My answer to your original question. Since you have a .62 then make it a .62 pistol with 12" or so barrel and a round ball and short range shot in the boiler room. Hotest load it will handle with accuracy at the max range you can hit the heart.
Bulls here on the Oregon coast can be approached to close range with the right wind and some know how.

 

[Zonie]

That could do it if the shot was well made.

Something that hasn't been mentioned is a bull elk averages over 700 pounds in weight. They can weigh over 1,000 pounds so, IMO, something that can easily kill a 250 pound deer (which would be a LARGE deer in most folks books) isn't necessarily going to kill a bull elk. They are really really large.

While mentioning elk, does anyone (besides me) know just how straight up the hair on the neck of a 10 year old boy can stand when he hears a bull elk bugle about 70 yards from a campsite situated well off the beaten path at about 9:00 at night?
OK. I'll admit it. The 10 year old's dads hair was standing upright too.
On a still night, that sound can really get your attention! :rotf:

 

[himem777]

I was reading about a mister Elmer Keith who was able to take a elk at 600+ yards with a .44mag hand load. How much energy can a .44 mag have at 600 yards, a lot less than a .50 cal with a good sized load at 50 yards? That is unless Mr. Keith was lying. It has been tested so I do not think so.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

:bull:

 

[poordevil]

It was a deer and I think already shot by a client he was guiding. He also took multiple shots at it as it scampered away. But I believe it. Elmer did say it was an accident, to use his words. He also said, that if one wore a gun as one wears his pants, every day and shoots and shoots and shoots, and knows his gun, he is likely to have many such "accidents"

You said you would keep your shots at close range, so I see no reason a hot loaded something in .58 and bigger would not do a good job. Go for it

 

[himem777]

Who is telling the bs Keith or me? As for animal, Hand loading Magazine was sure it was an elk but at 600yards i do not care if it was a kangaroo. They even repeated the shot in testing on an elk shaped target. They did not give the circumstances for shooting the animal, but I think the reasons would not change the terminal ballistics of the bullet. http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl56partial.pdf

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Under no circumstances is a black powder pistol a long range item. However, given a large bore with sufficient breech barrel thickness, a charge could be arrived at which would kill with a round ball. But the heft of the gun may well render it impractical as a side arm.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Who is telling the bs Keith or me? As for animal, Hand loading Magazine was sure it was an elk but at 600yards i do not care if it was a kangaroo. They even repeated the shot in testing on an elk shaped target. They did not give the circumstances for shooting the animal, but I think the reasons would not change the terminal ballistics of the bullet. http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl56partial.pdf[/quote]

I don't believe the story.

 

[himem777]

Ok Youtube has a bunch of videos of people taking long shots on targets. You would be right if you questioned the amount of energy left in the bullet at that range. The Question is can a 1850's BP pistol reach 75% of that. Thats the gun I want to build. Just to bring it full circle the OP was about a gun. :grin:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

At 600 yds I wouldn't use less than a .300 mag rifle.

I'm not one to use the minimum that will get the job done. I'm not sure why anybody would? Bragging?

I want the animal to go down as fast, and as humanly as possible. Hunting isn't a game to see how hard I can make it on myself.

I'm out of this thread before I say something I shouldn't.

 

[himem777]

Personally I wont shoot over 300 yards with my 308, but my question was about 50yards. The reason I even mentioned the famed 600 yard shot was that some Bp pistols approach the muzzle energy of the pistol involved. If It will kill a rabbit at 600 yards the it may kill an elk at 50. Or is that just bad logic.

Utah law states for large game a pistol bullet must keep 500lbs energy at 100 yards to qualify, for deer and down that much energy must be available at the muzzle. That means 250grn bullet at 1100 fps or a little less. Can that be done with a 12 inch barrel .50 with BP. I want it to be traditional. That sounds like a plains pistol or am I wrong?

BTW Capper and others while I still am not fully convinced, I still am looking seriously at you post. Your replys are appreciated. If I thought I already knew the answer I would not have asked the question. I am just trying to reconcile my book knowledge with your practical experience.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I'll make one last post to give you something to think about.

You say you want to be traditional. That's fine, but lets think about that.

If you were back in the day, and wanted to kill an elk. Why would you use a pistol when you have a rifle that will do a much better job? Nothing has changed between then and now.

You don't need to answer. Just think about it.

 

[himem777]

Good point.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

I have one of Jim Chambers 54 caliber pistols, a flintlock with a 14 in barrel. I bet it would build up some good pressures in that 14 in barrel.
It shoots a lot better than I do. I am not sure I would want to use it on large game at 50 yards.

 

[Geraldo]

Good point.

While you're considering that, consider this as well. If you can stalk to within 25-30 yards of an elk, does your choice of weapon make you a better hunter? Carry a rifle that will definately do the job and challenge yourself to hunt close.

 

[himem777]

I guess I want to do things a non conventional way, try something different. I would like to think that this is both HC/PC. I imagine that there were some mountain men of the old west that are just a weird as me, the historical record dose bare this out. In the days before mass production one off guns were the norm, and in todays records there are enph odd balls out their to bear witness. Not all carried the same thing.

This dose not mean that once again I need to be upbraided for thinking different or for not sitting in a false HC/PC box some have in their own mind.

I Just wanted to see what some guys thoughts on a PC Ultimate pistol. I know that the load might not be what was common back then, but I am used to that. Even with my 1858 Remington I am not totally HC/PC you see its made of steel not available in the day, made on machines that would have made Eliphalet Remington green with envy. I load it with sprue less round balls that are cold swagged, using Bp substitute not made with my neighborers waste and non mercury caps. So I am used to not being totally HC/PC with my loading.

I think the point for me is the challenge and the spirit of doing it the old way, maybe a different old way, but definitely the old way. I like the look and feel of the traditional. Not one of my guns even my CF guns is newer than 1936 (Except those that are repros like my Uberti). Its just me and my thing.

This is in response to a private message sent to me in response to this thread. It is not an answer to any post here. All the guys that have posted openly have been nice and respectful even if they think I am out of my mind, it is appreciated.

 

[himem777]

Another good point. I would counter with that I have accepted certain challenges with my choosing black powder in the first place. Yes I handicap myself by pistol ranges and perfect shot placement, and less than stellar terminal ballistics. If these things were an issue for me I would sell all my guns and save up for a Barret 82A1.

The truth is I no longer hunt with smokeless at all, I am not just trying to extend my season.

I like the traditional more than the ease of harvest. Thank you for your advice.