Twist question

[tryinhard]

I have a T/C Hawken with a Green Mountain 1:66 twist barrel. I know this is a round ball barrel but I'm curious to know if it would shoot something like Buffalo Bullets or would I be better off to find a faster twist? It's a 54 cal that's 15/16 across the flats. I think I'd be hard pressed to find another drop in barrel with a faster twist in this caliber. Am I wrong?

 

[bang]

Not going to say for sure but my Zouave is I believe 1 in 60 and shoot minis very well. I wouldn't think buffalos on the right load would be bad.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have a T/C Hawken with a Green Mountain 1:66 twist barrel. I know this is a round ball barrel but I'm curious to know if it would shoot something like Buffalo Bullets or would I be better off to find a faster twist? It's a 54 cal that's 15/16 across the flats. I think I'd be hard pressed to find another drop in barrel with a faster twist in this caliber. Am I wrong?

Well first, it would be common to find that your 1:66 barrel did not like conical bullets, BUT..., some very well known ACW repro rifled muskets are 1:78 twist and shoot conicals very well...so you will need to try several types of conicals and see. I think the shorter the better with that twist....

Of course you can find a faster twist drop-in barrel. A used, factory T/C Hawken barrel should drop in, or will after you fit the tang, and it will be 1:48 twist.

LD

 

[Cowboy]

It’s not only the twist rate but also the groove depth to consider as well. A good majority of these civil war rifles have a shallow groove depth even though a slower twist like you’d find in dedicated round ball barrel’s.

With the deeper groove depth that you’d find in your GM barrel, it would be hard pressed to create the proper spin needed for acceptable accuracy shooting conical shaped ammunition. Shooting hollow base mini’s have nothing for their expanding skirt to grab on to with deeper grooves needed for patched round ball.

As for buffalo conical’s with a solid base you’d still need something to grab those deep groove’s to create the proper spin needed for acceptable accuracy. A proper seal is also needed for the expanding gases wether you’re shooting RB or conical’s out of any type of rifled muzzleloader barrel.

Lastly, I would only say give it a try and see?

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Griz44Mag]

I have a T/C Hawken with a Green Mountain 1:66 twist barrel. I know this is a round ball barrel but I'm curious to know if it would shoot something like Buffalo Bullets or would I be better off to find a faster twist? It's a 54 cal that's 15/16 across the flats. I think I'd be hard pressed to find another drop in barrel with a faster twist in this caliber. Am I wrong?

You have a tool that was designed to shoot round balls.
Shooting conicals in it would be like hauling fresh manure in the trunk of the family car. Yes you can, but not what it was designed for and will not be as accurate as the PRB it was designed to shoot.
So I will ask, why the burning desire to shoot conicals? The PRB in a 54 will kill very effectively at any distance that you can see well enough to shoot at ethically. Even at 93 yards, every deer I have shot with a 54 round ball has passed completely through. And at 1/3rd (or less) the cost of a conical you can do a lot of practicing without breaking the bank.

 

[Grimord]

Yours must be a custom barrel for the Hawken. Most of the standard .54 Hawkens had 1" across the flats barrels with a 1:48" twist. As Griz44mag stated, your barrel was ment to shoot roundballs. Conicals can be shot, but the powder charges are usually quite low for any accuracy. The GM round ball barrels had deep cut rifling for patch ball use. Think of a football being thrown. To get a nice spiral, and accuracy, spin has to be applied. If too much spin is put on a round ball (Think baseball) the ball curves away.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Yours must be a custom barrel for the Hawken. Most of the standard .54 Hawkens had 1" across the flats barrels with a 1:48" twist. As Griz44mag stated, your barrel was ment to shoot roundballs. Conicals can be shot, but the powder charges are usually quite low for any accuracy. The GM round ball barrels had deep cut rifling for patch ball use. Think of a football being thrown. To get a nice spiral, and accuracy, spin has to be applied. If too much spin is put on a round ball (Think baseball) the ball curves away.

IIRC, only the Renegades came standard with a 1" barrel and channel. The off the shelf Hawkens were the small channel and stopped at 54 cal. The Renegades went up to .58 with the heavier barrel.

 

[tryinhard]

You have a tool that was designed to shoot round balls.
Shooting conicals in it would be like hauling fresh manure in the trunk of the family car. Yes you can, but not what it was designed for and will not be as accurate as the PRB it was designed to shoot.
So I will ask, why the burning desire to shoot conicals? The PRB in a 54 will kill very effectively at any distance that you can see well enough to shoot at ethically. Even at 93 yards, every deer I have shot with a 54 round ball has passed completely through. And at 1/3rd (or less) the cost of a conical you can do a lot of practicing without breaking the bank.

I was thinking of going out West & thinking in terms of knock down with the conical.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I was thinking of going out West & thinking in terms of knock down with the conical.

Going out West and hunting - but hunting what and at what range?
If you are going for larger game (Buffalo maybe?) or longer shots (over 50-200?) then maybe a change of barrel or a different gun for conicals would likely be in order. Otherwise, the 54 with PRB you have will reliably kill anything in North America at reasonable distances. If you going to be hanging out with Idaho Ron, then start looking for paper patch options. He is the king of long distance hunting.

 

[longcruise]

He said he has a GM barrel.

IIRC, only the Renegades came standard with a 1" barrel and channel. The off the shelf Hawkens were the small channel and stopped at 54 cal. The Renegades went up to .58 with the heavier barrel.

FWIW, TC sold their Hawken in a .54 one inch ATF and .50 in 15/16" ATF. All Renegades were one inc ATF. I think they missed the boat by not offering the 15/16" Hawken in .54.

When comparing civil war muskets its well to remember that as the bullet diameter increases less twist is required to stabilize it. Also, the minies with hollow base are weight forward which stabilizes more readily than solid base.

 

[nkbj]

As a muzzleloading barrel maker told me years ago, "deep groove barrels will shoot conicals just fine". And of course they will. The problem is that not all elongated bullets are easy to make accurate in deep groove barrels.
When you do that you're starting out with trying to consistently expand the bullet into the deep grooves being a major impediment to achieving accuracy. Shallow grooves are just easier to fill.
When you're trying to fill the grooves there are tricks to use:
1. Hollow bases.
2. Bullets heavy enough to resist forward movement.
3. Pressures high enough to make lead squirm around.

Put all those together and imagine what might be going on a few inches in front of your nose.

 

[hanshi]

You never know until you try them. My US M1841 has a 1-66" twist. Accuracy with prb will raise the hair on your neck. I tried some Hornady maxi-hunter conicals just to see. They were fine for hunting to beyond 60 yards but that was about it.

 

[Griz44Mag]

He said he has a GM barrel.



FWIW, TC sold their Hawken in a .54 one inch ATF and .50 in 15/16" ATF. All Renegades were one inc ATF. I think they missed the boat by not offering the 15/16" Hawken in .54.

When comparing civil war muskets its well to remember that as the bullet diameter increases less twist is required to stabilize it. Also, the minies with hollow base are weight forward which stabilizes more readily than solid base.

Can't say for all of them, but I have 2 TC Hawkens, a 50 and a 54, both are factory barrels (not GM like the OPs gun) and both are the small barrel. The 50 cal Renegade I have is a 1"

 

[Grimord]

Can't say for all of them, but I have 2 TC Hawkens, a 50 and a 54, both are factory barrels (not GM like the OPs gun) and both are the small barrel. The 50 cal Renegade I have is a 1"

You must have a rare one, cause I have never seen a 15/16" .54 barrel for a T/C Hawken that wasn't a Fox Ridge custom shop barrel made by Green Mountain. I'll bet that gun carries nice, and is a thumper.

 

[longcruise]

Yup, I have never seen one. I had a. 54 TC Hawken with a 1" barrel and I've seen a few others.

 

[SDSmlf]

I have a T/C Hawken with a Green Mountain 1:66 twist barrel. I know this is a round ball barrel but I'm curious to know if it would shoot something like Buffalo Bullets or would I be better off to find a faster twist? It's a 54 cal that's 15/16 across the flats. I think I'd be hard pressed to find another drop in barrel with a faster twist in this caliber. Am I wrong?

My 50 caliber GM 1-66 roundball barrel is surprisingly accurate with the Lee Mold mini. Tried it a couple of times when at the range with some faster twist barrels and was pleasantly surprised. Something you will have to try for yourself. As far as 54 fast twist TC drop in barrels from GM, they are rare to find, but out there. Have only heard about them in one inch barrels. Not sure about 15/16”. Wish you luck.

 

[Griz44Mag]

You must have a rare one, cause I have never seen a 15/16" .54 barrel for a T/C Hawken that wasn't a Fox Ridge custom shop barrel made by Green Mountain. I'll bet that gun carries nice, and is a thumper.

I bought the gun used, I cannot say if it was a re-bore or not. It was sold to me as "like new" and it appeared to have very few rounds ever shot out of it. Just pulled it back out and measured it again. It is the small barrel.
The rifling seems to be a very close match to my 54 Renegade.

 

[Grimord]

I bought the gun used, I cannot say if it was a re-bore or not. It was sold to me as "like new" and it appeared to have very few rounds ever shot out of it. Just pulled it back out and measured it again. It is the small barrel.
The rifling seems to be a very close match to my 54 Renegade.

I had one of the Invest Arms .58 Hawkens many years ago. It had a 15/16" across the flats barrel and was chrome lined. It was light in weight and carried well, but with hunting loads she thumped on both ends. I sold it in a fit of dumbness, but we have all done some dumb things in the past. Hopefully I won't do it again.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I had one of the Invest Arms .58 Hawkens many years ago. It had a 15/16" across the flats barrel and was chrome lined. It was light in weight and carried well, but with hunting loads she thumped on both ends. I sold it in a fit of dumbness, but we have all done some dumb things in the past. Hopefully I won't do it again.

I had one of the IA 58 rifles come in a trade a couple of years ago. I sold it to another member here on the forum. Like you, wish now I would have kept it.