TVM,What's The Attraction?

[Dausener]

Birdwatcher, I'm sorry your not happy with your fowler. I know it's disappointing when one pays a good sum of $$$ and don't get what they were expecting. I have a TVM fowler like yours and it works for me. I didn't know about the barrel tapper thing when I ordered mine either but I still love the gun.

Stone Knife, I truly hope you enjoy your gun as much as I do mine. As I said before, it can take anything from cottontails to whitetails. PC/HC aside a very good flintlock IMO.

 

[roundball]

Can't be any more clear than photos of good TVM guns at work...they get it done year round...every week at the range, every season getting game
:hatsoff:

 

[silly goose]

Certainly couldn't ask for a better advertisement. Great post, and great pics. Beautiful fowler.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Well done, and I'm glad you posted.

 

[Noeyebrows]

I have had some problems with my TVM as well. Same large gap between lock and barrel, large enough for 4f to get inside the lock. My rear sight was very poorly dovetailed and acually came loose during an out of state deer hunt. Loose ramrod pipes... This is not a complete list of problems. I shudder to think of what an amazing modern rifle I could have bought for that kind of money. Weatherby or high end Browning...oh well, live and learn. Caveat emptor!

 

[roundball]

No question they shouldn't ship with problems like that...at least I'm assuming you had them pick it back up and correct all that stuff.

 

[Leatherbelly]

Ok, it's my turn.
Here's how I'm seeing things. It seems that if you are not educated about all the entrapment's of a good smoothbore, and you order one from TVM, you risk getting a straight barrel,no taper. Birdwatcher has given good points regarding his messed up gun. I'm surprised it even goes off with the lock placement and the vent. Good grief! I feel sorry for you BW.I'd send it back and demand a better gun,if still possible. I've had 2 guns with non tapered barrels and I couldn't get rid of them fast enough.(ordered on line)Reputable manufacturers also. That's when I drew a line.Never will it happen again.
So for my friend, I'll recommend a kit from Chambers or an "in the white" from Mike Brooks(if he does that),or good used. I had a French fusil kit that Mike Brooks put together for a fellow that I bought it from, and it was a great shooter, sold in a weak moment to a woman.She wins with it regularly. Thanks for all the input.LB

 

[tg]

Some suppliers willnoy divulge all the little things thta mnay consider unacceptable unless specificaly asked this is why many find a surprise when they ipen the box, usually this level of gun is not for a serious gun student but for one who wants more than a lyman or TC yet not really intersted in the stronger levels of the PC/HC type of guns, as with anything one need do their homework and ask all thew right questions and assume nothing as to things all being as they "should" be.Many give some guns a glowing report yet have very little knowledge or experience with different styles or makers thta qualifys them to give such reports and this can be unintentionaly missleading to others.As much as some makers havre been tossed around here it is hard to believe that all the pros and cons are not well known by now.

 

[fyrfyter43]

Many give some guns a glowing report yet have very little knowledge or experience with different styles or makers thta qualifys them to give such reports and this can be unintentionaly missleading to others.As much as some makers havre been tossed around here it is hard to believe that all the pros and cons are not well known by now.

The pros and cons ARE well known by those who care. The problem is, there are a lot of folks who just don't care, and no matter how easy it is to build a HC gun, they would rather have something like what is turned out by builders like TVM. And we don't dare point out the shortcomings of these "kinda looks like" guns.

 

[tg]

"we don't dare point out the shortcomings of these "kinda looks like" guns."

True it is a gamble to suggest that even some of what we accept as historical fact is real not just a big missinterpretation, my sore point is that after over a decade of little things being complained about after people actualy see the guns they buy that the builders have not gone to a more full disclosure direction to avoid confusion. I cannot see a plus side in not giving the customers all the details avalaible in the beginning like strait round barrels/oct to rd. barrel with no taper in the oct section...what can be gained by not letting all be known from the begining, seems like the more information the more informed choice a person could make.....or just settle for something less than the expected and not send it back, that could be a manufcatures plus but we know they do jnot operate that way.

 

[stone knife]

Very nice :thumbsup: I just got back from a traditional archery shoot so I'm way behind on this thread.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Many give some guns a glowing report yet have very little knowledge or experience with different styles or makers that qualifys them to give such reports and this can be unintentionaly missleading to others

Well, two people who are serious re-enactors suggested TVM, both were as surprised at I was with what I got.

Perhaps they had seen TVM rifles and been impressed.

If I were selling an item that costs in excess of $1,000, especially to folks who are likely to make few such purchases in a lifetime, I'd tell folks everything up front.

But... that's me.

And to those minimizing the relevance of barrel profile in a gun like a fowler, well, all I can say is that ignorance must be bliss :v

I believe the real problem here is that the traditional muzzleloading community is a small one.

If we were talking Glocks or Kel-Tecs or Winchester or such, the shooting community online would be all over this stuff.

Birdwatcher

 

[silly goose]

Now there's a thought, if Glock made a fowler, I would be first in line. :grin:

 

[hanshi]

One point is very obvious but seems to zip right past far too many. They are rather explicit on their website that the guns they build do NOT REPRESENT ANY GUN OR MAKER BUT ONLY BUILT TO REPRESENT THE GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS DESCRIPTIVE OF PARTICULAR STYLE. The wonder is NOT that most of their guns ordered are not close replicas of existing guns but that they so easily reflect such origin. Basically - unless you tell them exactly what you want in a build - what you get is a reasonably accurate and very nice gun. Period.

Now this has nothing to do with obvious faults which are cause for rejection. Stand up for yourself; they do believe the customer is always right and they DO listen.

 

[jdkerstetter]

:2 Really though, there is no excuse for not using tapered fowler barrels at that price point. The retail on a Colerain tapered...both the octagon section and the round...is around $200, the wholesale cost is much lower.

Their savings must be from getting their "special" barrels for much less and the taking into account the ease of inletting a straight barrel. If that is the case then they are over-priced.

Whatever the case, the straight vs. tapered vs. swamped barrel should be disclosed up front as is the norm in the industry....and if you look closely at their site even TVM discloses this on some of their guns, Early Lancaster, Iron Pennsylvania....swamped barrels for a $250 upgrade, Grand swamped is standard....so why not on the Fowler? Why "special" instead of "straight"? :hmm:

There may be other companies/builders that don't differenciate between barrel profiles but I don't know of any.

Just saying, J.D.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Now this has nothing to do with obvious faults which are cause for rejection. Stand up for yourself; they do believe the customer is always right and they DO listen.

Complex issue, with the understanding that none of this amounts to the end of the world or any such catastrophe.

Out of ignorance and trust I did accept the gun as it came out of the box. I also accepted it a second time as "fixed" when Matt Avance handed it back to me personally, face to face.

Because of the circumstance I did not begin to actively shoot this gun for a full two years after purchase, when the other drawbacks became apparent.

But more than anything, disgust, pure and simple.

Turning out a gun like this in the first place was no accident, handing it back to me personally a second time was no accident. I would rather take the loss than ever deal with those people ever again.

I figure if this is the worst I ever get taken, I'll be in pretty good shape.

Others' MMV,

Birdwatcher

 

[jbrowngunmaker]

Birdwatcher,
I won't get involved in the conversation except to say, I believe Matt would do what ever he could to make this right with you. Why not just call him and state the concern and see what he says. If he says there's nothing he can do,then wear him out on the forums. At least give him a fighting chance. The non tapered barrels have been used by both TVM's from the beginning. I've heard Matt only uses Colerain barrels now. I have no idea. I've never used a untapered barrel except for the octagon part. Now, all I build are tapered round all the way. makes a sweet handling light barrel. Some may not like the tapered and swamped round barrel I use now but what the heck, I'm retired.

 

[hanshi]

Birdwatcher is correct in that disappointment over a gun isn't a big deal in the overall scheme of things. I don't know enough about fowlers - I have only one and it was my first - to give any "nays" or "yeahs" on what is HC or not HC. I never gave barrel profile much thought as I wanted a deer/turkey/squirrel gun with a rear sight. I would, if desiring a light, wing gun, opt for a tapered barrel. But I don't so I won't. Still, I do bet they handle nicely.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Now, all I build are tapered round all the way. makes a sweet handling light barrel. Some may not like the tapered and swamped round barrel I use now but what the heck, I'm retired.

My JB fowler is, indeed, all round and tapered from breech to about 9 1/2" forward then flares slightly near the muzzle making it really a swamp. And, indeed, very light and sweet handling.

 

[CrackStock]

Jackie,

Have you ever heard hens when laying their eggs?

:grin:

CS