TVM,What's The Attraction?

[Rifleman1776]

....FWIW, it is a half-stock.

Could this gun be a 19th century shotgun and not a fowler?

Could you please describe the barrel and whether it is percussion fired or flint?

Is it English or American? I'm now facinated.

Thanks, J.D.

You have me there. It is percussion. I don't know what distinguishes a shotgun from a fowler and, please, lets not get into that. No markings, I do not know country of origin but have several opinions that it is American.
FWIW, the replication that is supposed to be made from it has a barrel I bought fron a gunsmith in London who bought out a factory in Belgium that had it's doors locked in 1820. The barrel is damascus forged in 17 1/2 ga. after honing. And, the barrel is not tapered. Sadly, it is also locked up under court order.

 

[Robert Egler]

Perdersoli... Charlesvilles, Besses, Mortimers, Trade Guns, Sharps, Tryons etc etc no way resemble the orginals?

Uberti... didn't they BUY the original machinery from Colt?

And the Lyman Great Plains Rifle in no way resembles an original?


Birdwatcher

Nope, they don't resemble the originals, not to one who has handled originals and built them, no way...

To the untrained eye, sure they do, but not to one who really knows what to look for...

[/quote]

The statement is "resemble", not "is an accurate copy of". Yes, they resemble the originals. You can certainly tell what they're supposed to be, so they resemble the originals. A 2009 VW Beetle resembles a 1969 VW Beetle. They're not identical. My son resembles me, but we're not twins.

resemble [rɪˈzɛmbəl]
transitive verb
to possess some similarity to; be like
(emphasis added)

 

[jdkerstetter]

Thanks for the reply. Hopefully you will get it back someday and we can have a discussion on the merits of your gun. I rarely get as excited as I do when there is a prospect of examining an old gun.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

There are at least 3 levels of muzzleloaders, the factory guns which in no way resemble the originals...

???

Perdersoli... Charlesvilles, Besses, Mortimers, Trade Guns, Sharps, Tryons etc etc no way resemble the orginals?

I some ways yes, they are not bad but for a few dollars more you can get a closer reproduction. And I do mean literally a few dollars more. With the high cost of factory repops these days, custom makers' work is only $500 or so more and much better and historically accurate.

Uberti... didn't they BUY the original machinery from Colt?

No, they most certainly did not. In the late 1950s, Bill Edwards, working with Val Forget went to Italy with an original Colt and that was the start of the modern reproduction firearms industry. The Italian makers built the new reproduction pistols on their own machinery using new jigs of their own design. Colt's original machinery was long gone by that time.

And the Lyman Great Plains Rifle in no way resembles an original?

It is roughly similar in a modern sort of way but not really a close copy of any particular mid-19th Century sort of way.

Actually all I had to do was pick up the phone and call TVM, but like Rifleman said, it had never even occurred to me they would offer anything as fundamentally flawed as a heavy, non-tapered barrel. That would just be bizarre.

And for, literally, only a few dollars more, you could have bought Mike Brook's line for line in-the-white reproduction of the Carolina Gun, one of the most perfect copies of a mid-18th Century smoothbores made today. While it may not have been exactly perfect for the "Texian Revolution" period it would have been acceptable in that hobby and would have been absolutely perfect for the F&I and the American Revolution period. There would have been no "dissembling" from that maker, only guaranteed complete satisfaction. Too bad we can no longer hear from him here but you can get a look here:
http://www.fowlingguns.com/

Prices are here:
http://www.fowlingguns.com/brookskits.html

Please understand Birdwatcher, I am not running you down personally, far from it. You have pointed out some serious problems with your purchase and I am trying to help you become aware of another way to avoid those problems by trying to help you find something better for your next purchase and to end some of your confusion about modern reproductions of the various grades. Almost all reproductions no matter where made will shoot well and are good firearms for hunting or target work but with the cost of the Euro being what it is, custom makers are finding it easier to compete price-wise these days and their products are usually infinitely more historically accurate than factory-made if that is what you are looking for. I wish you all of the luck in the world.

 

[nchawkeye]

Actually the swamp in the barrel was made during the welding process or when hammered...Many show hammering marks...They weren't as concerned with all the filing that we do today...A good gunsmith would have made his own files...

 

[Birdwatcher]

I'm happy with a gun that looks and shoots good with out having to go over it with a magnifying glass to pick it apart.

Stone Knife,

Do you have ANY experience with modern firearms?

If my fowler was poorly inlet I wouldn't care, for real, I'm letting it get banged up and dinged as fast as it happens anyway, these things were the Mossberg 500's of their day after all.

If the furniture was wrong or the stock the wrong color, wouldn't trouble a whole lot either, especially if I knew that going in.

But what you should understand is the barrel weight and profile affects the whole handling qualities of the gun, just as it does, or even more than it does, with modern shotguns and rifles.

If you ain't planning to USE or carry that fowler much, this won't be that much of an issue, but I suspect you are.

Here's the profile of an untapered barrel, at the band...

What you see when sighting is the thirteen inches of the top barrel flat of the octagon section, then the top half of the front blade out there in space twenty-six inches beyond that.

Sight down a tapered barrel and you'll instantly see the whole barrel top clear to the front sight.

Can you aquire a sight picture with the former? Yes of course, but not as fast or naturally as you can with a tapered barrel.

This sort of thing is exactly why they put vent ribs on shotguns.

As my photos attest (with the exception of their hasty lock re-inlet), the fit and finish of of your TVM fowler will probably be exemplary.

Ignorance is bliss, so dont ever take it to the Spring Shoot at Friendship IN :grin:

Actually I jest, EVERYBODY serious about flinters needs to go to said event, its incredible.

And cool avatar BTW, the wife and I have both watched Last of the Mohicans about 100 times.

Birdwatcher

 

[Birdwatcher]

Please understand Birdwatcher, I am not running you down personally, far from it.

No offense taken, thank you for taking the time to post. Anyhow, I have taught public school inner city for twenty-five years, so I get insulted regularly by the experts.

And the REAL justification for my posts is that newbies like I was can learn from them.

Truth be told I knew of Mr Brooks' Carolina Type G's when ordering the TVM.

So much so I recall the exact price of a finished one in 2008 when ordering the TVM: $1,800 before shipping

False economy on my part, my TVM as ordered was $1,300 before shipping.

To put things in context, the most I had EVER spent on a firearm before that was around $600 (Glock 29 10mm) and I had thought that ruinously expensive at the time.

I knew the Brooks was the top of the line, the extra $500 just seemed unreachable, and I had no experience in finishing guns.

Since then I have HANDLED an Type G, at Ticonderoga.... incredible!

And I am seriously dismayed to read that Mike Brooks no longer posts on these forums

Birdwatcher

 

[Rifleman1776]

As I see it, this thread only proves one thing. There are different levels of ml gun making. At the bottom are the factory mades which only 'sorta' resemble originals. Then there are the semi-customs which are much better but not perfect replicas. Then there are the truly custom made guns. And within all three of those categories there are variations.
As I see it, the factory made rifles are servicable and usually very enjoyable to own and shoot. The semi-customs are usually made with high quality components and are very nice to look at. Usually they are close enough to representing most originals that 99% of the folks in the ml community would not know what they are lacking in 'period correctness'. Most owners are very pleased and proud of these guns. And in the custom made class are guns (fowlers and rifles) that vary from junky to museum grade. And even these do not always please the fussiest of pc nit pickers. My beautiful Jaeger doesn't pass muster with some here. That it their problem, not mine.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

As I see it, this thread only proves one thing. There are different levels of ml gun making.

Right you are, a good and accurate statement. To each his own.

.......... My beautiful Jaeger doesn't pass muster with some here. That it their problem, not mine.

Correct again. What we all have to realize is that there are folks who are satisfied, even ecstatic with something that we and others would not be happy with. I have managed to be on both sides of the fence and have enjoyed every one of the guns I have had or made. And I learned different things from all of them. Keep traveling down the road and look for the next "best thing", that is the way I try to look at it.

 

[stone knife]

I guess I'm not sure exactly what you deal is? I have the gun ordered and it will be here next week but you just keep trashing it. I have some advise for you why don't you keep your nose out of my business, I hope that is plain enough for you.

 

[Birdwatcher]

This is a open public forum, you posted on it.

We are not children here.

Everything I have said is merely the truth. For my own part I was grateful to those who gave me an honest critique of my own fowler, good and bad. I learned from it.

But, in view of your oviously injured feelings I will not comment on your fowler again.

And FWIW (prob'ly not much) after much trial and error I have found that 80 grains of FFg (FFFFg in the pan) works pretty well for both shot and ball. .600 cal ball, 0.010 lubed Ox-Yoke patch.

Birdwatcher

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Birdwatcher,

Sell it. You have been enlightened to things that will always bite at you. You do not have an inferior gun in comparison to other TVM type guns.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Been thinking on this barrel thing.

I dunno where I got the false info on Colt machinery having been moved to Italy ("Because you are stupid, Birdwatcher" being but one possibility :grin: ).

Seems like an urban legend from the Colt Signiature series era. I had a beautiful 1860 Army of that brand some years back, but it was so pretty I could never bring myself to shoot it and so gifted it away.

Turns out, in ironic turnaround, the parts for that gun came from Uberti, as do, if I am informed correctly, the parts for Colt's own recent 1873 SAAs. Produced there, finished and assembled here.

Closely examining my own Uberti 51 Navy, it appears that while the top flat of the octagon barrel is tapered, the other seven flats are much less so, if at all. I dunno the extent to which this mirrors the originals.

What I'm wondering is, if we take it as a given that 18th Century barrels were hammered out by hand one at a time, and almost always if not always tapered, were there advances in the mechanization of the production of barrels such that untapered barrels became easier to produce?

After all, Rifleman's untapered fowler is a percussion halfstock, suggesting a middling 19th century origin, and the source for additional such period barrels is an actual 1820 factory in Belgium (suggesting mass production of the same).

'Nother way of asking this same question:

How were the barrels on Colt revolvers produced?

Given that the barrel is of a piece with the parts that holds the loading level bolt, wedge and possibly of a piece with the forcing cone too.

Thanks,

Birdwatcher

 

[jdkerstetter]

....if I am informed correctly, the parts for Colt's own recent 1873 SAAs. Produced there, finished and assembled here.

I have heard that too and it wouldn't supprise me in the least. Makes good business sense and has happened a lot through out the last quarter of the 20th century 'til now. Browning did it a lot, especially with Beretta parts. The Howa CF bolt guns have been incarnated over time into S&W, Weatherby and Mossberg branded guns. Cimerron Arms and Taylors comes to mind when thinking of U.S. companies importing Italian parts and finishing them to nicer, more correct stylings. Saves companies from having to invest in expensive machine works and skilled people to run them.

How were the barrels on Colt revolvers produced?

The modern way. Starting with a blank billet that is then, machined, drilled and rifled...in whatever order best facilitates production and tooling.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Rifleman1776]

After all, Rifleman's untapered fowler is a percussion halfstock, suggesting a middling 19th century origin, and the source for additional such period barrels is an actual 1820 factory in Belgium

You misread what I said. The junker fowler I have has an untapered barrel.
The Belgium barrel is not meant for replacement. It will be used for building an entirely new gun along the lines of the original and using the original hardware but with a flintlock.

 

[hanshi]

Correct again. What we all have to realize is that there are folks who are satisfied, even ecstatic with something that we and others would not be happy with. I have managed to be on both sides of the fence and have enjoyed every one of the guns I have had or made. And I learned different things from all of them. Keep traveling down the road and look for the next "best thing", that is the way I try to look at it.
[/quote]
Actually, me too. Many of us are quite willing to sample and admire the grass on either side of the fence. I think it shows an open mind.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Sell it. You have been enlightened to things that will always bite at you. You do not have an inferior gun in comparison to other TVM type guns

Capt...

Thank you for your continued helpful interest despite all my harping then and now on this issue :grin:

So far my TVM has been generic enough to pass muster with two reenactment groups as disparate as F&I and Texian, achieveing my initial design objectives.

I will say the addition of a rear sight has been an enormous functional improvementnow that I am not looking down just the top barrel flat trying to pick up a sight picture.

I'm pretty sure I saw pretty much my exact same gun except with a rifle-style triggerguard for sale on TOTW some time back listed as a ".62 cal. smooth rifle" :grin:

I actually think TVM's rifled rifles might be a pretty good deal, regardless of taper or (probable) lack thereof. We EXPECT our longrifles to be heavy and muzzle-heavy.

Also, given that the (IIRC) totally historically inaccurate "short starter" is a standard item in most every rifleman's kit, the lack of any sort of swamping or coning in these or most other repro rifles isn't such a big deal IMHO.

I dunno how much of an issue the low placement of the ramrod channel is.

For my own TVM, it does shoot, and I'm just going to shoot the heck out of it and use it as a learning vehicle. Eventually it'll prob'ly just get gifted away to a younger relative.

In the meantime I'm gonna keep an casual eye out on the used market, in the year of my purchase I passed on two very good custom made examples, one for $1,100 and one for $800.

Birdwatcher

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

Birdwatcher, that photo of the barrel transition from octagonal to round speaks voulumns. I could never understand why taper is such a big deal, but now I think I comprehend. Thanks.

 

[Birdwatcher]

I could never understand why taper is such a big deal, but now I think I comprehend.

You're welcome, mission accomplished.

I actually took that photo with pride the same day I unpacked it from the shipping box, not knowing then to even check for a degree of taper.

A couple of shooters who looked at the gun at Friendship pointed it out to me, one having me sight down his own fowler for comparison. The difference was obvious.

Even so, it wasn't until I began to actively shoot it that the drawbacks became fully apparent.

As noted earlier, adding a rear sight has helped a great deal, but now I aim and shoot it like it was a rifle.

Birdwatcher

 

[hanshi]

That rear sight is a game changer on a smoothbore. I ordered mine with one and am glad I did. Good luck with that gun.