Turning a Pedersoli Bess into a Dublin Castle Short Land Musket

[dave_person]

Hi,
Other work unrelated to muzzleloaders has delayed me a lot so I need to get this project going. I am going to turn this Pedersoli Bess into a pretty good version of the pattern 1769 Besses assembled in Dublin Castle. The owner wants a musket that could have been taken by an American militia or continental soldier from a British soldier early in the Rev War. Because the Pedersoli is a short land musket, at that time most short land muskets in North America were from the Irish establishment. Therefore, the likelihood is that any short land British musket captured during that time would be marked Dublin Castle. I've reworked Pedersolis before to make them historically correct and posted the work on this forum. In this case, I am going to rework the lock and mark it properly as well as detail the gun to be as historically correct as possible. The musket is an old Pedersoli probably from the 1970s but it has been well cared for. The barrel is bright and clean inside and so is the lock despite evidence of a lot of use. As are so many reenactor muskets, the frizzen spring is anemic allowing horrible rebound but the mainspring is way too heavy. The markings need to be file off and correct decoration engraved. All of that will be fixed and done. The stock will be stripped and reshaped, much of the brass hardware will be modified, and everything finished in the manner of Dublin Castle. Below are photos of the raw musket before I start.

dave

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

This should be interesting ! I have my cup of coffee, and am ready to be entertained and educated !

 

[fireman1]

Tag for the coming awesomeness!

 

[poker]

Here comes some education!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
So why Dublin Castle? The Pedersoli Bess most closely represents a British pattern 1769 short land musket. In fact, it cannot really represent anything else even remotely. There are those who replace the flat side plate with the earlier convex one trying to make the gun a cut down long land musket. They were cut shorter when the muzzle thinned from wear. Those were issued but the barrel lengths and other adjustments like ramrod pipes are not well documented and they were a short lived stop gap measure. For an American continental or militia soldier to obtain a short land musket captured from the British during the first 2 years of the war, he would have to be at the siege of Quebec or fighting on Long Island and New York. The owner is a member of John Lamb's Artillery company, which fought in Canada during 1775-1776. There were 6 British regiments in Canada issued short land muskets from Ireland during that time so a Dublin Castle marked musket makes historical sense. The Pedersoli musket has some features that cannot be over come with respect to historical accuracy. The butt plate is too small and with respect to Dublin Castle issued guns, the brass hardware is too thin. For those who are not familiar with British ordnance production, they had 2 ordnance establishments, English and Irish. Troops stationed in Ireland were usually supported by the Irish establishment and issued arms from the Dublin Castle arsenal. Therefore, regiments barracked in Ireland were supported by the Irish establishment and many of those regiments were the first to be sent to American during our Revolutionary War.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi,
So why Dublin Castle? The Pedersoli Bess most closely represents a British pattern 1769 short land musket. In fact, it cannot really represent anything else even remotely. There are those who replace the flat side plate with the earlier convex one trying to make the gun a cut down long land musket. They were cut shorter when the muzzle thinned from wear. Those were issued but the barrel lengths and other adjustments like ramrod pipes are not well documented and they were a short lived stop gap measure. For an American continental or militia soldier to obtain a short land musket captured from the British during the first 2 years of the war, he would have to be at the siege of Quebec or fighting on Long Island and New York. The owner is a member of John Lamb's Artillery company, which fought in Canada during 1775-1776. There were 6 British regiments in Canada issued short land muskets from Ireland during that time so a Dublin Castle marked musket makes historical sense. The Pedersoli musket has some features that cannot be over come with respect to historical accuracy. The butt plate is too small and with respect to Dublin Castle issued guns, the brass hardware is too thin. For those who are not familiar with British ordnance production, they had 2 ordnance establishments, English and Irish. Troops stationed in Ireland were usually supported by the Irish establishment and issued arms from the Dublin Castle arsenal. Therefore, regiments barracked in Ireland were supported by the Irish establishment and many of those regiments were the first to be sent to American during our Revolutionary War.

dave

REALLY looking forward to another of your GREAT tutorials on modifying the Pedersoli Bess.

Many people don't know that over half of all British Regular Regiments between the FIW and the AWI were stationed/garrisoned in Ireland. As Dave mentioned, Regular Regiments stationed there were issued their Arms from Dublin Castle. However, it gets even deeper than that on Arms issue just before and during the early years of the AWI.

British Regiments stationed in England and that were to be sent to the Colonies, first TURNED IN their Arms to the Tower and then were sent to Ireland, where they were re-armed with Dublin Castle made Arms. Then they left from Ireland to come to the Colonies.

Unlike during the FIW when British Units with Steel Rammer Muskets had to turn them in and draw Wood Rammer Muskets before they were sent to the Colonies; prior to and during the AWI, British Ordnance made sure the troops sent to the Colonies had the best and most up to date Arms available. This because they were trying to keep the Colonies in the Empire.

OH, there were other P1769 Short Land Muskets and probably marked Tower here very early as well, though exact details are very spotty at best.

"In 1774, the HMS Asia, Somerset, and Boynes, carrying 460 British Marines were dispatched to Boston to reinforce Major General Thomas Gage’s army. Their commander, Major John Pitcairn, drilled and nurtured them into a first class unit, and in May of 1775, an additional detachment of around 700 Marines joined the 460 marines already in Boston to form the 1st and 2nd Battalion of Marines. Both battalions were organized along conventional army lines, complete with grenadiers and light infantry companies. The Marines soon took part in the battles of Lexington, Concord, Breed’s and Bunker Hill, where Major Pitcairn was killed."

Even the first detachment of 460 British Marines were a HUGE number to be stripped from the Royal Navy and all sent to fight as Infantry Soldiers. To give you an idea, the largest Ships of the Line had Marine Detachments of between 80 to around 120 British Marine Officers and Enlisted. So basically that number represented FOUR Ships' Detachments of Marines from their largest Ships of the Line. Since they were brought over by only Three Ships, that meant from the very beginning they were to be used as Land Infantry. The additional 700 Marines brought over was downright unheard of in that time period and really goes to show how important the British felt about investing and reinforcing Boston!

The Board of Ordnance for the Navy (including Marines) was in Plymouth at this time. But unlike the Ordnance Boards of the Tower and Dublin Castle, Small Arms did not seem to have been assembled there. Further while we lament the great loss of records at the Tower and Dublin Castle, there is more left on them than the remaining period records at the Plymouth Board of Ordnance.

We really don't know what the first 460 Marines were armed with, though likely they were armed with P1757 and P1759 "Marine or Militia" Muskets, though even the newest of these were beginning to near the end of their 10-12 year service life. Though these were "Short Muskets," they were not Short Land Pattern Muskets.

However, some documentation has been found that at least some of the second wave of 700 Marines were re-armed with P1769 SLP Muskets from the Tower and sent to Plymouth for the Marines. Under the British developing policy of sending "the best they had at the time," that made sense. Though I can't document this, I bet British Ordnance at least intended the majority of those 700 Marines were to be re-armed with P1769 SLP's, but I don't know how many were on hand at the Tower and how many actually got shipped to Plymouth before the second wave of Marines had to leave.

Gus

 

[Colonial Boy]

I too shall look forward to this.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Another “Watch and Learn” opportunity again! This Will be fun

 

[Justin.44]

I'm watching this thread! Looking forward to it.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
Thanks for piping in! Those marine detachments were critical because they were some of the only combat experienced British troops stationed in America. That included officers, which is why Gage had marine officers commanding British light units during the expedition to Lexington and Concord.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi Gus,
Thanks for piping in! Those marine detachments were critical because they were some of the only combat experienced British troops stationed in America. That included officers, which is why Gage had marine officers commanding British light units during the expedition to Lexington and Concord.

dave

ALWAYS a pleasure to add some "sprinkles" to the "frosting" of your excellent tutorials!

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I started on the stock by beginning to reshape the lock and breech area. I filed away the old barrel tang apron and cut a new more correct one. I simply draw it on the wood, outline it with a "V" chisel and cut away the background with a skew. It just took a few minutes. I reshaped the lock and side plate panels a bit. The flats around the loc will be very thin.

Notice the machine hogged out lock mortise and compare it with a mortise cut like the originals:

I got started on the butt stock. Unfortunately butt stocks on Pedersoli Besses are much too small. Below is a copy of a butt plate for a real short land musket placed on the Pedersoli stock.

The Pedersoli stock is way too small and I am not sure I can make it look very close to any originals. A Miroku Bess butt plate shown below is also way too small.

Neither the Italian or Japanese repros can be made to look right. I'll have to use all my tricks to make this one look decent even if that is an illusion. One place to start is to taper the baluster wrist as it progresses down the stock. That gives the illusion the that the end of the butt is taller.

The walnut is so soft I could cut it with hand power. I just cut an outline with a big "V" chisel and then slice away the excess with a skew. Then clean things up a bit with scrapers, files, and sand paper. Se the slight "perch belly" on the bottom in the last photo. Totally wrong and ugly.

The change helps but I am beginning to wonder if I should trash the stock and build one from scratch using the lock, barrel, nose cap, pipes, wrist plate and trigger guard from the repro but add a proper butt plate. I'll have to think on it a bit. Modifying the existing stock may be too severe a compromise for me to accept. In the mean time, I'll work on the lock.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Started on the lock.

The steel is pretty tough so I heat soaked the flint cock, plate and top jaw in my oven at 900 degrees for 30 minutes and let them cool over night in the oven. That makes them a bit easier to work. I annealed the frizzen in my oven so it was ready for filing. The markings on the repro were cast in and with all cast "engraving" the edges of the marks are slightly rounded. You really have to grind away the marks because some are pretty deep. I would weld metal on top if needed but I think this lock will be fine just with grinding. The cast in engraving does not look anything like the originals. Here is what it should look like:

Oh, and if anyone thinks the India-made guns are better, I have news for you:

You also have to preserve the rounded shape of the lock plate. I've seen Pedersoli locks that someone tried to change the engraving and they created a flat where the name was. Looks terrible. Anyway, I have more filing and polishing to do before I am ready to engrave the plate. I'll leave some marks such as the crown that I can use as a guide. Also, remnants of the outer border line will used for the new "thick and thin" border. The lock will work up nicely. I am still not sure about the stock. he butt is so small compared with originals and seems to be smaller than other Pedersolis I've reworked. I am wondering if this was a Pedersoli kit that someone made. I removed a lot of wood off the bottom by the trigger guard. You can see the filler patches in the mortise

The inletting on this gun is pretty mediocre.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I spoke with the owner tonight and we decided to do a complete restock. Great! Now I can make a real Bess not try to salvage some poorly designed and made commercial junk. I'll discard the old stock and get cracking on the new one tomorrow. I have a good plank of plain American black walnut, which I will make look like English walnut. I am very relieved.

dave

 

[fireman1]

Hi,
I spoke with the owner tonight and we decided to do a complete restock. Great! Now I can make a real Bess not try to salvage some poorly designed and made commercial junk. I'll discard the old stock and get cracking on the new one tomorrow. I have a good plank of plain American black walnut, which I will make look like English walnut. I am very relieved.

dave

Your skills amaze me. You talk about making a new stock like it's just a matter of a bit of cutting and sanding.....like I would hang a piece of dry wall.

 

[PathfinderNC]

It was uprising to see the huge difference between the stock sizes, repro from original! In working to 'authentasize' it, as they say, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
It's going to be an even more fun building event to watch now

 

[dave_person]

Hi fireman1,
Yes that is about right. I've built quite a few historically accurate Besses so the stock work is rote for me. I also know in my mind exactly what it should look like so I can proceed quickly. I'll post the entire project so you can see.

dave

 

[fireman1]

Hi fireman1,
Yes that is about right. I've built quite a few historically accurate Besses so the stock work is rote for me. I also know in my mind exactly what it should look like so I can proceed quickly. I'll post the entire project so you can see.

dave

I'm really looking forward to it!!

 

[Allenby]

Great report on your thought process and how you plan to solve problems. Thank you for taking the time to share your insights with us. Stay safe.

 

[Cornbread]

WOW! I too had no idea how far off the repro was from the originals. I once owned a Pedersoli thinking it was legit.

Too bad there isn’t a “Kibler Clone” out there that could take your finished stock measurements and add those into a CNC machine and start making these???

I’ll stop talking now, get peanuts, popcorn and the RC Cola ready - then BINGE watch/read when you’re done!

James