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Tuning Open Top Replicas

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Ah yes, looking close at the photo I can see the flute on the side of the barrel now. Very nice.

Great group I can see why you would be pleased.
Wish I had taken a pic of the group before that one. It was with 30 grains instead of 35 and all six rounds hit within an inch and a half of each other. I was so surprised I guess I figured it was an accident! I am a pretty fair handgun shooter...just didn’t expect a stock gun to do that. Pretty pleased.
 
Have two 1860 Army's and an 1851 Navy. For most, they shoot very high when new out of the box. There are three primary things I had done to them:
1 A smooth 3-lb. trigger pull.
2 An 11-degree cut on the forcing cone.
3 A taller, 5/16's front sight.

I can't believe how much better they shoot. And doesn't seem to matter who shoots them. They shoot right where you point them.

Rick

Where did you get the taller front sight? Are they screw in type or dovetail?
 
One it is not theory two these are not modern revolvers. All of my open tops are set between .002 and .003 and they run well with much reduced fouling on the arbor. With all due respect since you haven't tried it you are not really in a position to say it doesn't work. Second having the arbor bottom out in it's recess is important to having the wedge be able to lock the two units together as one. This is how the originals were made and for a reason at the point the barrel lug contacts the frame the arbor bottoms out so you have two points in contact when the wedge is tapped in and everything stays consistent. The idea that the barrel cylinder gap should be set with the wedge is a fallacy.
[/QUOT Yeah,it's theory but OK ,you have a different opinion I don't agree with. That's fine but I don't believe what you picked up from some ones notion of the only way to accomplish a task actually holds up under trial. There are a bunch of guns out there that are plenty accurate and do not bottom out in the arbor well. Another revelation to some is that just because a factory decides to do something a certain way does not necessarily mean it cannot be improved upon.
Metal in slots, wedges and arbor blocks under go compression and tension under the load of discharge. I believe the more important with open top revolvers is elongation/tension which is the predominate stress in play with the wedge and barrel slots on either side. The compression in this interface is the wedge against the arbor slot end and both barrel slots on the other side of it. I contend this is better left on its own as it is a separate component from the well and the stop at the end. With a well stop we wind up with two separate and unequally loaded compression zones .
One more thing is that your .002 gap is only at the tight spot it will not be circumferential-ly uniform (parallel) with the barrel face around the clock on any revolver. On open tops it is good to have them a bit tighter at the top side at rest because under tension of discharge they will probably elongate to parallel.
 
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Having the arbor bottom out in it's recess so the gun functions as a solid unit is of first importance. Not a problem with Pietta but always a problem with Uberti. Second is a close barrel cylinder gap about .002 is optimal. As to sighting install a dovetailed front sight that will take care of elevation and windage. Do not alter the barrel lug to adjust windage as that will affect wedge fit.
My oldest 1860 was made in 1966 or so, by Uberti for Navy Arms. The arbor was short but not knowing any better I assembled and loaded it just like grandpa and Elmer Keith told me to. Drive the wedge in and eyeball it. Stop when the gap is parallel. I shot it that way until last fall. Killed a wagonload of rabbits and squirrels with it too. It’s always been one of my most accurate pistols, modern stuff included. Since I “fixed” the short arbor it’s been as accurate as ever but it’s definitely not improved. I’m probably not going to fix any of the other open tops.
 
One more thing is that your .002 gap is only at the tight spot it will not be circumferential-ly uniform (parallel) with the barrel face around the clock on any revolver. On open tops it is good to have them a bit tighter at the top side at rest because under tension of discharge they will probably elongate to parallel.
Once again you are wrong, Set up properly the gap is equal all around. As I said the wedge is not nor was it intended to set the B/C gap it's sole purpose is to lock the two units together. This is how I do it. Say I have a new Pietta 1851 that has a .005 B/C gap. The arbor all ready bottoms out since it is a Pietta so driving the wedge in hard is not going to change the gap. I remove .003 from the end of the arbor and from the face of the barrel lug where it meets the frame. I now have a .002 B/C gap that is equal all around and can't be changed by the wedge. With a Uberti of course I have to correct the short arbor also.
By the way on guns with the short arbor point of impact changes each time you reassemble unless you get the wedge in exactly the same place each time.
 
My oldest 1860 was made in 1966 or so, by Uberti for Navy Arms. The arbor was short but not knowing any better I assembled and loaded it just like grandpa and Elmer Keith told me to. Drive the wedge in and eyeball it. Stop when the gap is parallel. I shot it that way until last fall. Killed a wagonload of rabbits and squirrels with it too. It’s always been one of my most accurate pistols, modern stuff included. Since I “fixed” the short arbor it’s been as accurate as ever but it’s definitely not improved. I’m probably not going to fix any of the other open tops.

The thing that sets your revolver apart is your reassembly procedure. You take care to set your wedge the same every time ... hence your point of aim remains the same reassembly to reassembly.

The "fix" for this nesescity is fixing the arbor length. Hence your point of aim and cylinder gap remain the same as well as the tension on the arbor threads now with the fix, are not under tension as the wedge now has bottomed the arbor tightly against the barrel and remain there with the wedge installed. The threads on the arbor now only get tension when pressing the ball into the chamber upon loading and at the shot. Now with the fix, the arbor, barrel and frame become a complete unit with the installation of the wedge. No need to closely inspect the cylinder/barrel gap as this gap returns to its exact position time after time.

This is not the first time I have heard of the tight .002 to .003 cylinder gap being good for arbor remaining cleaner and not binding up with a few cylinder fulls.

There are ways to be able to continue shooting with the larger cylinder gaps. My navy has a .006 gap and with my shooting/loading procedure has allowed me 55+ shots with nothing but wiping off the cylinder face time to time with my shirt ta
 
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My oldest 1860 was made in 1966 or so, by Uberti for Navy Arms. The arbor was short but not knowing any better I assembled and loaded it just like grandpa and Elmer Keith told me to. Drive the wedge in and eyeball it. Stop when the gap is parallel. I shot it that way until last fall. Killed a wagonload of rabbits and squirrels with it too. It’s always been one of my most accurate pistols, modern stuff included. Since I “fixed” the short arbor it’s been as accurate as ever but it’s definitely not improved. I’m probably not going to fix any of the other open tops.
That has also been my finding after drinking the cool-aid for a long time. They are equally accurate either way if all else is correct.
 
I thought I was going to have to educate myself on open top tuning when I recently bought a fluted Uberti 1860 Army.

Maybe not. Pic below is from its first time shooting out back. Range was 15 yards. I called the low left hit. Load was 35 grains of 3F, lubed felt wad and .454 ball.

The first group was 30 grains and was a bit tighter.

A local gunsmith who pretty much only works on black powder weapons suggested relieving the forcing cone would be a good thing to do. Other than that...I might be done!

View attachment 29694
Beautiful pistol, love those long flutes, and the accuracy. Who the black power gunsmith if you don’t mind to say? Be careful & well...
 
Once again you are wrong, Set up properly the gap is equal all around. As I said the wedge is not nor was it intended to set the B/C gap it's sole purpose is to lock the two units together. This is how I do it. Say I have a new Pietta 1851 that has a .005 B/C gap. The arbor all ready bottoms out since it is a Pietta so driving the wedge in hard is not going to change the gap. I remove .003 from the end of the arbor and from the face of the barrel lug where it meets the frame. I now have a .002 B/C gap that is equal all around and can't be changed by the wedge. With a Uberti of course I have to correct the short arbor also.
By the way on guns with the short arbor point of impact changes each time you reassemble unless you get the wedge in exactly the same place each time.
If you know how to properly use a feeler gauge and will take the time to check the gap and are honest about it, you will quickly find it is not perfectly parallel with your barrel face and never was designed to be. This rarely occurs even with the best solid frame revolvers and certainly does not with open top frames especially at discharge. I realize the well block is a good way to repeatedly regulate wedge depth. All I'm saying is that it's not necessary to good accuracy if one knows how and uses a feeler gauge correctly which will give the same certainty of proper wedge depth .
Also a properly fit wedge does not need to be driven into place with a hammer. It should be able to be seated and unseated with finger pressure and perhaps a screw driver handle or pop cycle stick.
 
If you know how to properly use a feeler gauge

How does one improperly use a feeler gauge?

Also a properly fit wedge does not need to be driven into place with a hammer. It should be able to be seated and unseated with finger pressure and perhaps a screw driver handle or pop cycle stick.

Even Sam Colt (in original instructions) advised that the wedge should be seated with a small mallet. Finger/thumb pressure is not enough.
 
How does one improperly use a feeler gauge?



Even Sam Colt (in original instructions) advised that the wedge should be seated with a small mallet. Finger/thumb pressure is not enough.
The original Colt instructions I have doesn't mention how to seat the wedge. Where did you find instructions written by the Colt company that said to use a small mallet? I would really like to get a copy of them.

Here is the instructions I found:


" DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING COLT'S PISTOLS.

First explode a cap on each nipple to clear them from oil or dust, then draw back the
hammer to the half-cock, which allows the cylinder to be rotated; a charge of powder is
then placed in one of the chambers, keeping the barrel up, and a ball with the pointed end
upwards without wadding or patch is put into the mouth of the chamber. turned under the
rammer, and forced down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder, so that it cannot
hinder its rotation
(Care should be used in ramming down the ball not to shake the powder from the chamber,
thereby reducing the charge).
This is repeated until all the chambers are loaded. Percussion-caps are then placed on the
nipples on the right of the lock-frame, where, by drawing back the hammer in the full-cock
the arm is in condition for a discharge by pulling the trigger; A repetition of the same
motion produces the like results with six shots without reloading.
It will be safe to use all the Powder the chambers will hold, when loading with the flask,
leaving room for the Ball, whether the Powder is strong or weak. Fine grain Powder is the
best. Soft lead must be used for the balls. The cylinder is not to be taken off when loaded.

The hammer, when at full cock forms the sight by which aim is taken.
To carry the arm safely when loaded let down the hammer on one of the pins between each
nipple, on the end of the cylinder.
The arm should be throughly cleaned and oiled after firing, particularly the arbor-pin on
which the cylinder turns.

DIRECTIONS FOR LOADING WITH COLT'S FOIL CARTRIDGE

Take the white case off the Cartridge, by holding the bullet end and tearing it down with the
black tape. Place the Cartridge in the mouth of the chamber of the cylinder, with the
pointed end of the bullet uppermost, one at a time and turn them under the rammer, forcing
them down with the lever below the surface of the cylinder so that they cannot hinder its
rotation.
To ensure certainty of Ignition, it is advisable to puncture the end of the Cartridge, so that a
small portion of gunpowder may escape into the chamber while loading the pistol.

DIRECTIONS FOR CLEANING

Set the lock at half-cock; drive out the key that holds the barrel and cylinder to the
lock-frame, then draw off the barrel and cylinder by bringing down the lever and forcing the
rammer on the partition between the chambers. Take out the nipples. Wash the cylinder
and barrel in warm water, dry and oil them throughly; oil freely the base pin on which the
cylinder revolves.

TO TAKE THE LOCK TO PIECES, CLEAN AND OIL

First--Remove the stock, by turning out bottom and two rear screws that fasten it to guard
and lock-frame, near hammer.
Second-- Loosen the screw that fastens mainspring to the trigger guard and turn spring
from under tumbler of the hammer.
Third--Remove the trigger guard by turning out the three screws that fasten it to the
lock-frame.
Fourth--Turn out the screw and remove the double arm spring that bears upon the trigger
and bolt.
Fifth--Turn out the screw pins that hold the trigger and bolt in their places.
Sixth--Turn out the remaining screw-in and remove the hammer with hand attached, by
drawing it downwards out of the lock-frame. Clean all the parts and oil them throughly.

TO PUT THEM TOGETHER--Replace the hammer with hand-spring attached, then the
bolt, the trigger, the sear spring, the trigger-guard, the mainspring, and finally the handle,
returning each screw to its proper place, the arm is again in for use."
 
Hi Snubnose

That front side on the 1860 Army I had custom made by Bill Stroh (of custom 1911 fame) now retired. The other two revolvers I ordered from Kenny Howell (of conversion fame). They are all dove tails. Of course that was years ago. They are all machined, and slightly thicker for strength. The sights are about 5/16's tall, similar to a Colt Peacemaker. That's the height Kenny used on his conversions so they would be dead-on at 7 and 25 yards, where most shooters shoot.
The current crop of conversions supposedly do have a taller front sight. But I'm told they are sighted for 50 yards vs 75 like the C&B's. So still not tall enough - to me. Notice the height of the Peacemakers.
You would think a company like Ted Cash or similar could come out with a simple casting for stake in replacement. But I remembered Kenny Howell mentioning that the casting would be so small that it would take the same amount of time to finish as machining it to begin with.

Rick
 
Zonie,

Either I have a photo of it somewhere in my archives or I will enlist the help of a couple of cronies on another forum.

I'll get back to you.

Regards,

Jim
 
If you know how to properly use a feeler gauge and will take the time to check the gap and are honest about it, you will quickly find it is not perfectly parallel with your barrel face and never was designed to be. This rarely occurs even with the best solid frame revolvers and certainly does not with open top frames especially at discharge. I realize the well block is a good way to repeatedly regulate wedge depth. All I'm saying is that it's not necessary to good accuracy if one knows how and uses a feeler gauge correctly which will give the same certainty of proper wedge depth .
Also a properly fit wedge does not need to be driven into place with a hammer. It should be able to be seated and unseated with finger pressure and perhaps a screw driver handle or pop cycle stick.
For gosh sakes I only used the statement that when the arbor is properly fit no matter how hard you drive the wedge in it will not change the B/C gap as an statement of effect not an example of how you should do it. Yes a moderate tap is enough to seat the wedge. I am well aware that fine accuracy is possible without fitting the arbor. However a properly fit arbor and a close B/C gap are important to the longevity and ease of use of the open tops. You have your own opinion and they are your guns and if your methods give you satisfactory results great. My personal opinion is you don't really know where of you speak. But that is just an opinion.
 
Once bought a Pietta .36 1851 new in the box from a gentleman on the forum. The barrel could not be removed because the wedge had been installed at the factory as a forced fit. The end of the arbor was expanded and distorted. It was a mess. Took a long time and a lot of micrometer, file and brain work to turn it into fine shooting piece.
If you might recall the 1851's that Pietta sold with the battle flag grips, it was that long ago. They've come a long way since then.

Finished some fitting on a Uberti dragoon. Once the wedge is fixed will be trying out these 217 grainers.

🤪
Sweet! The bullets look good, are the back ends a slip fit into the chamber? Did you mould them, if so which maker's mould? Good luck with your Dragoon! Geo.
 
Sweet! The bullets look good, are the back ends a slip fit into the chamber? Did you mould them, if so which maker's mould? Good luck with your Dragoon! Geo.

How does one improperly use a feeler gauge?



Even Sam Colt (in original instructions) advised that the wedge should be seated with a small mallet. Finger/thumb pressure is not enough.
If you have to ask that question it means that you don't know how.
 
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