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Triple 7 ignition problems
- Thread starter Osborne Russell
- Start date
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Bergmann
40 Cal
I had trouble with 777 - and I have heard that it begins to deteriorate once exposed to the air? I believe this to be true because I tried using it in my Chunk gun and, after shooting an excellent group from a fresh can, a year later the same load from the same can couldn't keep the ball on the paper! I also believe heat affects it! I have a BP revolver which I keep loaded in my truck; sometimes for a year or more before I fire it and reload! After a year in my Truck I'm getting delayed ignition! All cylinders fire but that pop-bang just isn't right! Overall I think 777 is good stuff - just don't keep it on the shelf or in a horn for too long!
I tried looking myself,, sure couldn't find anything. I hope they're around some place,, there's a bunch of the referance stuff that seems to be long gone or buried deep.
A sad loss,,
General muzzleloading section, 2nd sticky down, tables ....... has a bunch. Did not see the one you referred to but i believe they are out there. Angie can help as she recovered the info and put em out there.
Crow-Feather
32 Cal.
If your caps are firing powder the first few shots and then not firing powder until stronger flame enters the barrel, it usually means that something is partially or completely obstructing the powder charge. Thus T7 leaves more residue than other powders? The fouling also causes you to be less accurate. Throwing a thick heavy wet patch down a barrel seems to me to push the fouling in front of the patch and into the firing chamber area which would cause misfires. I understand that some people can push a thinner patch down the bore that doesn't reach into the grooves until the patch is pulled pulled out of the bore "bunching" up and forcing the residue out of the bore.
Remember that when you hunt, you fire a clean barrel with your first shot. If you want to check hunting accuracy, all your shots should come from a clean barrel as a clean barrel and fouled barrel will usually shoot to different points of impact. Thus over a series of visits to the range, carry a target that only has first, clean barrel shots on it. Should be interesting.
No matter what propellant you are using do not use large granual i.e 1 1/2 or depending on rifle maybe even 2ff. My Pedersoli frontier will sometimes bridge over , no problem with TC so far wipe with alcohol patch , clean out drum and channel with pipi cleaner every so often and you should have no more problems.
Buzz
Buzz
Took me about 30 seconds to find Paul V posts. Go to post 13 in attached thread for example.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/seneca-light-hammer-fall.77296/
"messed with " doesn't tell me anything I can work with here!
To diagnose hammer/nipple contact problems, first make sure the gun is unloaded.
1. Now, using lipstick or some marking dye to coat the top edge of the nipple.
2. lower the hammer down so that the face of the hammer makes contact with the nipple.
3. Do this with a new nipple the correct size for the gun. Don't just buy something that says "T/C".
5. cock the hammer back to full cock, and stand the lock up under good light so that you can see the face of the hammer.
6. You should see part or all of a circle of the marking dye on the face. If you see only part of a circle, use a dremel tool grinding bit to remove the High Spot, ie., where the dye is left.
Repeat this process of transferring dye from the nipple to the face of the hammer, until you have created a full-width circle of dye transferred to the hammer face. Once done, you can remove the dye using alcohol on Q-tip.
This technique will make sure that the entire hammer face is striking the nipple, SQUARELY, and insure ignition.
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People on muzzleloader boards been saying that for years. Never saw any evidence myself: Couple years ago i chronographed loads from a can of 777 that was opened at least five years previously. Velocities were very close to those from a newly opened can.
I had experimented with Triple Seven in a side-lock years ago. I switched to the Mountain State Muzzle Loading "Spitfire Magnum" nipple and all my ignition problems, disappeared. I use Remington caps which they claim are 40% hotter (compared to what, I don't know). They're similar to the CCI Magnum caps.
I gave one to a friend of mine and it fixed his problems also. He was using the CCI standard caps.
Good Luck!
Walt
I gave one to a friend of mine and it fixed his problems also. He was using the CCI standard caps.
Good Luck!
Walt
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You need full strength musket caps. The reenactment caps are to weak to set the sub black powder off.
A bore scope will tell you exactly what is going on down inside your barrel, and if the flash hole is open into the powder chamber of the breech plug. Some times the gun is only cleaned with the loading rod and in doing that the powder chamber of the breech plug does not get cleaned correctly and builds up residue. Try to measure and see if you are getting into the chamber of the breech plug to the very bottom, and work on the flash channel with wire fishing leader wire like a drain snake.
I only have three black powder rifles, but all three have a hooked breach and I'm wondering if maybe that just makes cleaning enough easier, for you can simply remove the barrel and set it in a can of water and then pump this back-and-forth that we get less misfires and hang fires, especially in percussion. I've never experienced these problems with my Flint as long as the Sparks were adequate. It keeps me a little busier, being as how it's not really a high dollar equipment or operation, to see that the flints make adequate sparks. Actually it makes it more fun as I can definitely state I'm not in this to find the ultimate rifle or the cheapest cost. If I didn't go out and shoot paper, the two shots a year at game animals would make this whole thing ludicrous. Some years I don't even get those two shots, But I generally get at least two or three paper turkeys. There are some advantages to old age, as it seems to take less to keep me entertained.
Squint
Squint
Has anyone thought to ask if a sub might not have a reliability issue with a patent breech gun? Get a tad too much of the hard crusty from a sub in the fire channel and presto, no bang.
It would be worth the experiment to do a head to head with quality real black and see about misfires and velocity variations in patent breech guns.
It would be worth the experiment to do a head to head with quality real black and see about misfires and velocity variations in patent breech guns.
The gun he has, doesn't have a patent breech.
It's a drum.
And it's easy most times to recommend changing any or all of the components of someones "problem" load with other powders, other nipples, other caps,,, to those that we have found successful, but in today's market of unavailable items,, sometimes it's just not possible.
What the OP has going on is a mechanical application issue. What he has will work just fine, but because he doesn't have available the perfect items needed, he just has to do a little extra work
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My results have been very similar. The only times I've had CCI caps fail to ignite a charge ended up being operator error - improper cleaning between shots push crud to the bottom and interfered with fire getting to the powder.
The gun @Osborne Russell has is Traditions Hawken Woodsman as mentioned in the original post. While this rifle uses a drum to provide the nipple seat, the rifle has the CVA/Traditions breech in which the threads for the drum are drilled through the breech plug into a a reduced diameter powder chamber. This is not technically a patent breech. The powder chamber is partially reduced with respect to the barrel diameter. Zonie drew this very nice drawing that shows the breech of a CVA/ Traditions drum (and flint lock) breech. Is is very easy to see how fouling can be pushed into that chamber in the breech plug and block flame from igniting the powder charge.
Early on I used T7 and experienced the same problems as you have had. Even went to a 209 primer set-up. T7 was the only powder that gave me a very painful hangfire as well. Here is my advice, free of charge. Your mileage may vary.
First, get real black powder. I use Goex and I order it. It's cheaper that way although it's
a 5 pound minimum. 2f for my .54 rifles and 20 gauge smoothbores and 3f for everything else, .50 and below. That is not a set in stone commandment, just a general recommendation. Get a new nipple, in Stainless steel. The Spitfire is good, but factory nipples are notoriously bad and don't last. I prefer the bronze nipples by Ampco. Longer lasting and won't rust. Try this place for your size needed.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/category/category_id/385/name/Nipples?view_allNow, before you go shooting again, pick up a 1/2 yard of 100% cotton flannel at your local fabric store. Cut it into cleaning patch sizes. Also get a bottle of alcohol, 75 to 91 % is good. These flannel patches remove the majority of crud in one swipe so use them for cleaning and swabbing. These two terms are not the same as cleaning is for after you've gone shooting and swabbing is in between shots. Now, before shooting I run an alcohol dampened flannel patch down the bore to remove any left over oil or rust preventative the snap a cap or two to make sure there are no problems. I will occasionally place a small patch just inside the muzzle before placing a cap on then snap it in a safe direction. If the patch stays put then there's a problem. A word on alcohol and how much to use. Alcohol cuts the oil and breaks up powder fouling. Since alcohol naturally attracts water then you always have some in the mix. However, alcohol will render a fresh powder charge inert, so your patches need to be barely dampened. If you can squeeze a drop out of the patch then that's too much. Swabbing is not cleaning; it is just down and up then discarded. Since alcohol has a much lower boiling point it evaporates quickly and takes the water with it. That is why it works well for swabbing but again, too much and it will turn your powder charge into mush or worse, cause a hangfire, especially when using T7. Ask me how I know.....
Lastly, learn how to work up an accurate load in your rifle. Start with the same amount as the caliber if using traditional black powder; 50 caliber equals 50 grains. Shoot three times aiming at the same point on the target. Do not adjust anything! Increase by five grains and repeat until your groups tighten up to acceptable (by your standards) Take a notebook and right down your results. Trust me on this, it's something I wish I'd done from the beginning. Now, if using T7, reduce your load by 10% for 2f and 15% for 3f. A 50 caliber rifle would start with a charge of 42.5 grains of 3f Triple 7. Increase by 5 grains as above.
Conicals; depth of rifling has as much to do with stabilizing the bullet as does rate of twist. The 1:48 twist rate is NOT a compromise to be able to shoot PRB and lead Conicals equally well. It almost always is the rifle shoots one or the other more accurately. You will have to test various styles and weights of conicals to see which, if any, will be accurate in your muzzle loader. In my experience, the addition of a fiber was, lubed or unlubed, increases accuracy no matter what the design or weight is. My Lyman Great Plains rifle with it's 1:60 twist would group the Great Plains type bullets into about a 6 inch circle at 50 yards. Not acceptable accuracy for me. A PRB would shoot a three inch group at 100 yards all day, so being that it was a 54 caliber it would serve me for anything I would be hunting. I had a Lyman Great Plains hunter barrel mounted on a Cabela's stock. The 1:32 twist rate would send the .50 Lee REAL bullet, 220 grains, into one ragged hole at 75 yards all day. However, using 95 grains of 3f Goex was brutal on my shoulder. Accuracy is what is acceptable to you.
I received some advice on shooting practice before the hunt that goes for whatever you shoot. Take one practice shot per yard that is possible to shoot in the place you intend on hunting. If you'll be in the thick pine woods and 45 yards is the farthest unobstructed shot you might have then take 45 practice shots with the muzzleloader loaded with the most accurate load you worked up previously. If it's wide open but your self imposed limit is 80 yards then it's 80 shots.
I know that's a lot to digest but it's what I've learned over the years and maybe some of it will help you or someone else. What works for one person may not for another even if using the same type or model of muzzleloader so it's important to see what works for you and your rifle prior to getting out into the field. Again, I hope this helps and good luck.
