Having dealt intimately with technical manuals for 30+ years I can speak with authority when I say people who can do things with expertise are as common as peanuts. People who can explain these things in a way everyone else can understand are not. The skill sets are completely different. I suspect you simply don't understand (another skill set) what I said. Re read it, memorize it so that you know what each variable is and then think about it. It will come to you in the fullness of time.
If I could figure out how to use this editor to draw I could draw you a diagram illustrating what I mean along with the simple math to prove it.
Trigger,
First of all, I don't know why you took such offense at my original message?? When you answered back it didn't appear that you had even read or comprehended my message becasue you decided to set up hypothetical trigger installation scenerios that I never indicated. Methinks i struck a nerve and you went off on a tangent and wrote a reply in haste.
I was a Journeyman Tool & Die Maker for 35 years. As one i had to give direction to Journeyman Tool & Die Machinists that did machining for me as well as being able to converse with, understand, and make myself understood, to engineers and others who can draw pictures, but can't make an actual working part. I never had any trouble expressing myself on technical matters in a way that others would understand. BTW, a daily part of my job for 35 years was the use and application of physics, trigenometry and geometry.
Seems to me that Mike Brooks, a well respected and nationally known custom muzzleloading gunsmith, didn't have any problem understanding what I was talking about.
You are trying to make installing a simple single trigger into rocket science. It isn't that I don't understand what you said, but that you were seriously changing the parameters of installing a single trigger by introducing elements that don't even apply to the job at hand. You brought into the conversation some ideas about what could be done with the sear, the length of the trigger, etc. which are not options once you have a certain lock and have already purchased a trigger and are trying to install it. At the point in time that you have inlet your lock and are trying to install a purchased trigger, you only have the positioning of the trigger as an option, not changing the length of the sear, changing the sear bar or changing the length of the trigger plate. If you really want to talk about the principles of physics, geometry, and such then we should do so elsewhere. I just didn't really want to get into a long discussion about all the extraneous elements that you were trying to insert into a straight forward conversation about installing a simple trigger.
Actually, there is no need for another drawing as the one presented by StaticXD00d is more than adequate, with some explanation, to illustrate trigger installation.
I would like to think that we are trying to convey the same message, but I don't think so.
I still don't know how you can say that you are right and all the guys who wrote the muzzleloaading building books and all the muzzleloading gunsmiths who install simple triggers using the method I have stated are wrong.
You are not just argueing with me, but in essence, you are argueing with the whole combined knowledge of the field of muzzleloading gunsmithing.
Just in case you have lost sight of my original message I am going to restate it:
"The trigger pin should be as high as possible, preferrably higher than the pivot point of the sear. Pinning the trigger above the sear pivot point, as well as only 1/4" or so in front of the sear bar, is what makes for a light comfortable trigger pull."
There is no debate about this among experienced competent muzzleloading gunsmiths. There is no debate that the trigger needs to be pinned "high". In reference to my statement, the only thing that some builders change is the distance from the pivot point of the trigger to the contact point of the sear bar making this distance just a matter of personal preference of the particular builder. They all know that they need to mount the trigger with a "High" pivot point. Myself, I usually hand forge my own triggers so that I can mount them as high as I like them.
When you install a simple trigger, the "fulcrum" that gives you the mechanical advantage is actually the pivot point of the trigger. The lever that you are trying to gain the mechanical advantage for is the trigger plate and a small part of the trigger bar. Yes, you can gain a very, very slight additional mechanical advantage by making the trigger plate longer, but there is a limit to this because the trigger plate has to fit and operate within the confines of the triggerguard. THe amount of mechanical advantage gained by elongating the trigger plate is minimal at best. However, the mechanical advantage gained by placing the pivot point of the trigger, (the fulcrum,) high means the difference between a 5-6 pound two finger trigger pull and a nice light crisp trigger pull. If you position the trigger low, as you have proposed, yet have the pivot point of the trigger close to the contact point of the sear bar you have gained some slight mechanical advantage, but the fulcrum effect is an infinitesimal part of that sight mechanical advantage because the pivot point of the trigger, the fulcrum, is actually below the weight that you are trying to move with your lever. The actual weight you are tring to move is not out on the sear bar somewhere, but is at the contact point of the sear with the tumbler notch.
Randy Hedden
