trigger help

[thorr1965]

i bought this rifle the other day for my 11 year old granddaughter , i believe its a youth model . the only markings i can find on the gun is R.Kern this is on the lock, no other marking to be found. its a 45cal. shots great but the problem is it has a very hair trigger . My question is can i change the trigger out for one from another rifle that is not so ease of a pull maybe a single trigger if that would work .

 

[Zonie]

Your rifle has a double set trigger and if it is like most of them, it can be fired without cocking or setting the rear trigger.

Usually, just using the front trigger to fire it requires a rather hard trigger pull. Are you saying that without setting the rear trigger the front trigger is very easy to pull to make the gun fire? If so, your gun is very unusual but maybe someone here can help you figure it out.

Some of these double set triggers need to have the rear trigger cocked first and just pulling the front trigger won't release the hammer.

Let us know which way your triggers work by trying to use just the front trigger to release the lock and then telling us what happens.

 

[thorr1965]

I have to set the rear trigger on this so the hammer will lock into position then pull the front trigger to shoot once the hammer is locked in the front trigger has a very soft pull you , it seem like all you have to do is just touch it for it to go off.

 

[EC121]

Back out the screw between the triggers and see if the pull changes. Also you can pull the triggers out and see if the front trigger spring is hanging up. You can also remove the lock and look in the hole where the sear bar goes and see if the front trigger has a blade on it. Also look for spots where the wood is dragging the sear or sear bar. The wood might have shrunk. If the front trigger has a blade, it is a double acting, double set trigger. If no blade, it is a single acting double set trigger. This ain't rocket science. The triggers only have about three moving parts and the lock five or six. It isn't that hard to take a look. And yes they can be replaced if you don't mind a little work. May or may not be a drop-in situation. Some wood may need to be added or removed.
If you have to set the triggers to go to half-cock or full-cock, then you need a screw under the mainspring to lower the trigger bar. Drill and tap a hole for a 6-32 screw under the high point of the mainspring and adjust it until the lock will go to full cock without setting the triggers.

 

[thorr1965]

here is the lock and trigger , i did turn the screw on the trigger but it didnt seem to help any

 

[EC121]

The contact points on the triggers look worn round, and the blade is way too high. You could try driving the pins out and stoning the points sharp and putting the screw under the mainspring. A new set of triggers is about $50. Track of the Wolf has the measurements of their triggers, but personally I would try to fix those first. For plan B you could always remove the parts and just use the plate to install a single trigger or get the plate with the trigger and inlet it as a unit. A good single trigger is probably better(and safer) for a kid.

 

[Britsmoothy]

You may simply not backed the screw out enough.

 

[45man]

Yes, the blade of the rear trigger is pushing the lock sear hard. Back the screw out more to get more pressure on the front trigger.
Proper fit will allow a lock to cock without setting the triggers so just pulling the front trigger will fire the gun. I have a Bob Roller trigger here that is a bear to set but once it goes off, the rear trigger floats free without spring pressure. It will not touch the sear bar of the lock and the front rises when pulled.
That trigger was not designed properly and you can replace it with a good set trigger or a single trigger. There is no blade on the front trigger to push the lock sear bar so you can't use it alone. That rear trigger should NOT push against the sear bar.
You can try and shim the trigger plate out so the rear trigger is off the bar and can be used to fire it.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The triggers pictured are single lever, double set triggers. These will only rease when set. Try for adjust the screw out and back out a half turn the screw putting tension on the release lever, rear trigger.

 

[EC121]

Backing out the screw can make more creep, but set triggers are by definition hair triggers. Contact point geometry, mainspring tension, and front spring tension control the pull weight.
How much pull weight do you want? Maybe you could let the granddaughter dry fire it some to get used to the feel before going too far. Once she dry fires it, with a little coaching she might adjust to it. My grandsons had no problem shooting my rifles with set triggers. However, they were good Davis triggers.

 

[rich pierce]

What Grenadier said. The front trigger will never fire the lock. It cannot be used alone without setting. The front trigger only releases the rear. You need new triggers and I recommend a simple trigger for a novice.

 

[Zonie]

thorr1965:

The problem is, either the trigger assembly is set too deeply into the stock (very likely) or the screw that some locks have to adjust the tension on the rear trigger spring needs adjustment (not all trigger assemblies have this). This is causing the rear trigger blade to sit too high when the rear trigger is not cocked.

If the adjustment screw exists, it is the first thing that should be adjusted. To see if the trigger assembly has one, look back behind the rear trigger. If a screw exists there, screw it in (clockwise). If the screw doesn't exist, read on.

Very often on older guns the trigger assembly will have been crushed deeper and deeper into the mortise by people overtightening the tang screw.
Check out the area at the rear of the mortise where the rear of the trigger rests. If it is the flat surface I think it is you will need to make a shim to put between the flat area of the wood and the underside of the trigger plate.
I'm just guessing but it will probably need to be about 1/16" thick. (Several thicknesses of cardboard like a cracker or cereal box will be needed. A thin piece of wood is even better).
Once placed between the trigger and the stock wood, screw the trigger assembly back in place. You should now be able to cock the gun without needing to set the rear trigger. If you can't, try adding a few more shims.

A more permanent way of fixing the problem is to file the top surface of the rear triggers blade down. This will lower the upper surface of the trigger blade with respect to the sear arm on the lock which will allow the sear in the lock to engage the full cock notch. (This is commonly done when one is installing a new set trigger in a new build of a rifle. It is just part of the game.)

As for the screw between the triggers, it does NOT control the location of the rear trigger blade with respect to the locks sear arm. Adjusting this screw only controls the engagement of the front trigger with the rear trigger to hold it in a "set" position. It should always be adjusted to assure a full engagement 100% of the time when the rear trigger is pulled back against the spring pressure.
To do this adjustment, screw the screw out at least 4 full turns. Then, set the rear trigger. Now, screw the adjustment screw in until the rear trigger is suddenly released. Once this happens, back the adjustment screw out 1 full turn. (Lyman and a few other companies provide the trigger assembly with a screw that is too short to actually release the rear trigger. They seem to think this is a safety measure to keep people from incorrectly adjusting the screw so, if you can't get the screw to release the rear trigger just screw it in so it doesn't get lost and call it a day.)

Try these fixes and let us know what happens.

 

[Pete G]

You could also try puting some bend in the trigger return spring to increase tension.

 

[rich pierce]

Some seem not to understand this type of trigger MUST BE SET to cock the lock. No amount of filing the rear blade or adjusting a set screw or shimming the mortise will change this fact. Not everyone has seen or used such triggers but they were common on originals in the mid to late percussion period. If you file the rear blade down or shim it out, it will stop firing the lock.

 

[Zonie]

Some seem not to understand this type of trigger MUST BE SET to cock the lock. No amount of filing the rear blade or adjusting a set screw or shimming the mortise will change this fact. Not everyone has seen or used such triggers but they were common on originals in the mid to late percussion period. If you file the rear blade down or shim it out, it will stop firing the lock.

OK. MY ERROR.

I should have looked harder at the pictures of the trigger assembly.

Rich is correct. If you notice in the pictures, the front trigger does not have a blade on it to engage the lock sear. Only the rear trigger has a blade on it to trip the lock.

This style of trigger does require the rear trigger to first be cocked before the lock can be fully cocked. They were designed to be used with locks that did not have a fly in the tumbler and they were/are popular with target shooters.

As I mentioned before, the screw between the triggers only adjusts the amount of engagement between the front and rear trigger. It does not increase the pressure needed to release the rear trigger.

 

[EC121]

The rear trigger won't need to be set if there is a screw installed under the mainspring. It depends on how much throw(or overtravel past the sear bar location) the rear blade has. Sometimes if the triggers are too low, the blade will only be hitting the sear bar at the end of its travel. Or if the stock it too thin, the blade can't be made to go low enough. I've built them both ways. You really have to see the triggers in the stock to tell much. The rest is just trigger theory. I had one original that didn't have a halfcock notch. It was fullcock or nothing. I have a custom flintlock with skinny little original triggers where the stock is so vertically thin that even with the mainspring screw, I could just barely get the triggers to work right.
From a safety standpoint you should never have to set the triggers to cock a lock. We have all heard about going off halfcocked.

 

[thorr1965]

thanks guys for all your help i did bend the front trigger spring and i did help a little but i think im going to order a new single trigger for it to see if that helps out again thank for all the advice