Tried and True Danish Oil versus Boiled Linseed Oil finish--question on application

[COTNTOP]

I have used everything mentioned above and some more. The big diff that I have seen is that some wood just turns out better than others, not saying fancy is better. I have saw just plain old walnut just turn out incredible. The last stock I refinished was with Birchwood Casey and was satisfied with looks and with the ease of application and drying.

 

[user 48702]

Same goes double for linseed oil impregnated cloths/rags. Any that I use I preempt the spontaneous combustion habit and burn them on the spot in a little brick hearth that I assemble for the purpose.

Be sure and dispose of any steel wool used with linseed oil type products, it goes through a heat and will spontaneous combust as well. It has been known to combust just sitting on a workbench or in a metal pan.

 

[The Appalachian]

I said BLO, I mean hardware store BLO, has not place in stock finishing. I stand by that. IF you want to rub in coats until you hand bleeds, you can achieve as sort of finish. IT will take forever to dry. It will ooze in the hot sun. IT will darken the wood. IT is not good when it rains. But hey, have at it, it is not my gun.

You stated you have 50 years worth of opinions. Good opinions are based on facts. And the fact is, your opinion simply isn't.

The only difference between "hardware store" linseed oil, and Tried & True products, is how it's been processed to cure into a hard durable finish. Fact.

You obviously didn't read, or comprehend, how I described to better use BLO, because it solves all the evils you seem to fear of it.

Now, it doesn't matter what you do to your stocks, least of all to me, but when someone tries to disparage something that's successful, posted in good faith, to help others on this forum, I'll do my level best to keep the record right.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

As far as how long to let a finish dry before it's considered fully cured, I read somewhere that if you can smell it on the wood it's not cured. It's still off-gassing the VOC's. It seems to be a fact.
I've used spar varnish or some sort of poly over BLO for years with good results. The problem I've had is that varnish usually comes in pint cans and 90% of it spends so much time in the cans that it becomes useless and gets tossed. What I've done is hot water bath can it in 40 oz. jelly jars. It keeps for years. It takes a little, very little, heat from a torch to get the lid off. For the last 20 years or so varnishes and many other things we all use couldn't be mailed to Alaska. Safety you know, It couldn't be flown so I was stuck with buying large amounts at the hardware store.

 

[Scota@4570]

I think this is the last one I got,
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/paint-and-supplies/stains-and-finishes/varnish/1021721I have also use "Man-o-War" brand. They both come in small containers. As long as it is varnish it all seems to work about the same.

I add about 30% turpentine and a little japan dryer. That dries in one day, a bit faster if you hang the stock in the sun.

As for the drying in the can problem, you can spray some argon (Bloxygen) in the can before you seal it back up. Also put a couple of little holes in the groove that the top fits into. That will let the finish in the groove back into the can so you can get a good seal.

http://www.bloxygen.com/ I get mine at a paint store. One can lasts me years.

 

[frankie]

Danish oil is not waterproof neither is linseed oil. I wouldn't use it. A lot of the guild guys and me use tung oil and maybe mix a little of urethane, NOT poli-urethane.

 

[DuncNZ]

Hershal House writes "After staining the stock I use one coat of raw Linseed oil to form a base - then boiled or true oil. Many coats of both - well rubbed in." I guess he would know .
For those of you wanting historically correct stock finishes , is there any evidence that the early gunmakers used or even had access to Tung oil ? Tung is after all an Asian tree ,I am not aware there was a trade in Tung oil from China / Japan to America , if you insist on using Tung oil make sure you are not allergic to it , it can give a nasty rash , there is a very small warning on the tin .
Boiled linseed oil is heated not boiled and used to have white lead added as a dryer , that is no longer the case as the lead is toxic , I think Japan driers ( Cobalt and Manganese )have been added to quality BLO instead . As I have said before use artists grade BLO not hardware store stuff , and natural turpentine not mineral , both available at artists supply stores .Hand rubbing a finger tip full at a time is the trick , all too slow for commercial gun makers . I left my bottle of BLO with out using it for several years and the oil lost a lot of moisture of some sort , enough to cause the sides to collapse in , so leaving the lid off could have some benefits
Have a look at Good old boiled linseed oil finish

 

[TFoley]

Be sure and dispose of any steel wool used with linseed oil type products, it goes through a heat and will spontaneous combust as well. It has been known to combust just sitting on a workbench or in a metal pan.

Many years ago, probably forty-five or more, I took a short series of evening classes in furniture restoration. The instructor only ever used bronze wool. Since that time, so do I. Bronze wool, unlike fine steel wool, does not leave minute shreds in the wood grain - shreds which eventually oxidise and cause small black blemished to appear, often underneath that carefully-applied final coat of varnish. Although it might not be varnish that you apply to your gun stock, the damage that can be 'achieved' using steel wool is not to be ignored, so I take no chances.

At the risk of causing offence, I'm showing a stock that I refinished from a 'wood wreck' in 2001. It has around 20 coats of Danish oil on it, finished with stock wax. This photo was taken ten minutes ago.

I'd very much like to learn what Mr Person uses when he is preparing a piece of wood for more finishing.

 

[springfield art]

I wouldn't dare to dip a toe into such a hotly contested subject, but I can jokingly imagine some years in the future, when ML guns come up for sale at auction, people asking, "What concoction method was used to finish the stocks?"

 

[springfield art]

I DO so wish that we could get Min-wax products here in UK. I can't show you a stock that I refinished from a flaking, peeling ruin in a dank cupboard as it is on an unmentionable, but almost twenty years later is still looks good - well, to ME, anyhow.

Surprising that Min-Wax products are not available in the good ol' UK!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
When someone posts a method and implies it is "THE" way to do something, be skeptical. There are always multiple ways to do any task and meet any objective. I also wish that folks describing their favorite stains and finishes would post photos of their work. That way readers can judge if the methods fit their needs. I've used many different finishing products over the years but homed in on 2 based on my experience. Both use tung oil. The first is 25% raw tung oil, 25% urethane varnish, and 50% mineral spirits. I used this mix while living in SE Alaska because I could not easily get polymerized tung oil, my favorite finish, and developed an excellent alternative that was more readily available. It stood up very well to the harsh conditions of rain, salt air, and sea spray encountered during hunting in that environment. My second and favorite finish is Sutherland-Wells polymerized tung oil. I use it because it can match the appearance of any original finish, which were mostly linseed oil and copal varnish mixes, but has superior weather resistance to linseed-based finishes and it does not darken over time. Tung oil is ancient and was sometimes referred to in centuries past as "China" oil. I doubt 17th-19th century European and American gun makers ever used it. They used linseed oil, not because it made a great finish, but it was cheap and available. There is also evidence from some Lehigh Valley rifles, that some gun makers sealed stocks first with shellac and then applied linseed oil varnish on top. Anyway, I substitute tung oil for linseed because it has superior qualities and I can make its appearance match any of my objectives. Every stock I finish is a different story because of the serendipitous nature of wood, the species of wood, and my objectives for the appearance of the gun. Sometimes I apply just the finish, sometimes I tint it with oil soluble dyes or alkanet root, some times I apply the finish with sandpaper to create a grain filling slurry on the surface, sometimes I apply a few coats for a low sheen, and sometimes I let finish build up so I can rub it back with rottenstone and create the glassy smooth finishes found on Purdeys and Holland & Hollands . Each stock is different.

dave

 

[frankie]

Hi,
When someone posts a method and implies it is "THE" way to do something, be skeptical. There are always multiple ways to do any task and meet any objective. I also wish that folks describing their favorite stains and finishes would post photos of their work. That way readers can judge if the methods fit their needs. I've used many different finishing products over the years but homed in on 2 based on my experience. Both use tung oil. The first is 25% raw tung oil, 25% urethane varnish, and 50% mineral spirits. I used this mix while living in SE Alaska because I could not easily get polymerized tung oil, my favorite finish, and developed an excellent alternative that was more readily available. It stood up very well to the harsh conditions of rain, salt air, and sea spray encountered during hunting in that environment. My second and favorite finish is Sutherland-Wells polymerized tung oil. I use it because it can match the appearance of any original finish, which were mostly linseed oil and copal varnish mixes, but has superior weather resistance to linseed-based finishes and it does not darken over time. Tung oil is ancient and was sometimes referred to in centuries past as "China" oil. I doubt 17th-19th century European and American gun makers ever used it. They used linseed oil, not because it made a great finish, but it was cheap and available. There is also evidence from some Lehigh Valley rifles, that some gun makers sealed stocks first with shellac and then applied linseed oil varnish on top. Anyway, I substitute tung oil for linseed because it has superior qualities and I can make its appearance match any of my objectives. Every stock I finish is a different story because of the serendipitous nature of wood, the species of wood, and my objectives for the appearance of the gun. Sometimes I apply just the finish, sometimes I tint it with oil soluble dyes or alkanet root, some times I apply the finish with sandpaper to create a grain filling slurry on the surface, sometimes I apply a few coats for a low sheen, and sometimes I let finish build up so I can rub it back with rottenstone and create the glassy smooth finishes found on Purdeys and Holland & Hollands . Each stock is different.

dave

I would take Dave person's advice.

 

[Scota@4570]

Here is a link describing how to make HC varnish.

http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol5no2/articles/mbo52-1.shtml
Click on "saved version"

 

[springfield art]

Hi,
When someone posts a method and implies it is "THE" way to do something, be skeptical. There are always multiple ways to do any task and meet any objective. I also wish that folks describing their favorite stains and finishes would post photos of their work. That way readers can judge if the methods fit their needs. I've used many different finishing products over the years but homed in on 2 based on my experience. Both use tung oil. The first is 25% raw tung oil, 25% urethane varnish, and 50% mineral spirits. I used this mix while living in SE Alaska because I could not easily get polymerized tung oil, my favorite finish, and developed an excellent alternative that was more readily available. It stood up very well to the harsh conditions of rain, salt air, and sea spray encountered during hunting in that environment. My second and favorite finish is Sutherland-Wells polymerized tung oil. I use it because it can match the appearance of any original finish, which were mostly linseed oil and copal varnish mixes, but has superior weather resistance to linseed-based finishes and it does not darken over time. Tung oil is ancient and was sometimes referred to in centuries past as "China" oil. I doubt 17th-19th century European and American gun makers ever used it. They used linseed oil, not because it made a great finish, but it was cheap and available. There is also evidence from some Lehigh Valley rifles, that some gun makers sealed stocks first with shellac and then applied linseed oil varnish on top. Anyway, I substitute tung oil for linseed because it has superior qualities and I can make its appearance match any of my objectives. Every stock I finish is a different story because of the serendipitous nature of wood, the species of wood, and my objectives for the appearance of the gun. Sometimes I apply just the finish, sometimes I tint it with oil soluble dyes or alkanet root, some times I apply the finish with sandpaper to create a grain filling slurry on the surface, sometimes I apply a few coats for a low sheen, and sometimes I let finish build up so I can rub it back with rottenstone and create the glassy smooth finishes found on Purdeys and Holland & Hollands . Each stock is different.

dave

Good posting. I think the 'military' minded guys are used to the good old linseed oil soaking that the musket stocks were treated with at the military arsenals. Each to his own would apply here! The old timers didn't have a Lowe's or Big Box paint department to browse in!

 

[tenngun]

After 50 years and hundreds of stocks I have opinions.

BLO, has no place in stock finishing. Yes, you can add dryers or add it to other stuff to make concoctions, but the BLO does nothing worth while to improve anything. Dozens of coats of BLO (I have done it too) has no particular merit.

The truth is that almost any clear finish will work. IN the no good category is shellac and the water borne garbage. For muzzleloaders I stick with a varnish type of finish. The key is to prepare the stock to 320 grit or finer. Apply the finish very thin. Use multiple coats. Thin it if necessary. Jim Kibler recommends Tried and True in his utube videos, that is good enough for me.

Not having easy access to Tried and True, I use spar varnish, cut with turpentine, and a dash of japan dryer. I apply it with a wad of womens stocking material (no lint). It takes about four coats to do the job. There is no need to over think this, unless you like fussing around with it, then have fun.

Sam Falada did some stock finishing test. This was in the 1970s and I’m sure we have made better stuff since.
However what did he find.
He took walnut blocks and finished them with various gunstock and commercial wood finishes and linseed oil. He tossed the blocks in a bucket of water. Weighed them before and after.
Lindseed came in dead last. Absorbing the most water. It was almost equal to bare wood.
Then he recalled what an old cabinet maker told him. Slow, but it’s in the wood,not on it.
He repeated the test. Soaked with Lindseed, and wiped off. Let stand for a week.
Buffed. One thin coat every day for a week. Then once a week for a month, then one a month for a year. At the end of the year the BLO was….
Well not last. But was in the middle of the pack out performing the quicker and fair compared to the best
Lindseed works and you can shoot a week or so into the process. It’s trouble is it’s never done. Once applied your stock is thirsty for it from now on
One coat too much a thousand not enough

 

[The Appalachian]

Dave person, you should post photos, Just saying.

Skepticism: it's a deal, then. Your post included, because I'm personally skeptical of everything posted on the world wide web and prefer to prove things out for myself with results, rather than taking some random irrelevant anonymous person's word for it on the interweb. I would expect everyone else to do the same with what I post.

The subject at hand is nothing short of biblically religious to many people no matter where it's discussed. It is one of many MANY gun subjects that produce highly contested discussions among one of the MOST opinionated demographics on earth. Gun owners. Everyone's opinion is right and everyone else's is wrong. That's just how it is, it seems, about everything.

Even the so called pros don't bother to fully understand some things, because they don't take the time to research. They just see something work good enough, form their sacred opinion on it, and roll on.

As far as what I posted, take it or leave it, I don't care. Argue with it, and I'll lay out the facts for you, because my results are successful. It was presented for the OP's benefit TO TRY, not the review of so called pros who's opinions are more rightous than anyone else's.

Back in the day I used (linseed based) Tru Oil for many many years, based on random anonymous advice, and eventually grew dissatisfied with the look of it, and the fact it's a very shallow finish by its very nature of drying too fast.

I like old and aged, and the grain not completely filled. And, I abhor a stock that shines like a new penny and feels like plastic. So I delved into experimenting with other things and came up with exactly what works for me, described above. A deeply penetrated finish that doesn't build too fast and has the old look and warm feel I like.

It's funny also to read people talk about waterproof, on a muzzleloading forum, about muzzleloaders. I must be the only hunter on the planet who keeps his rifle dry when it rains, so it won't fail to fire when needed. By the way, going the extra mile and using a proper wax protects any finish used from moisture. It's called preventative maintenance. As stated in my post, Axe Wax is what i use, and more than adequate. I could write another volume why, but I'm sure somebody couldn't resist spouting their opinion because to them wax is wax is wax.

 

[frankie]

One of the best oils I have found to use. Several guild members and myself use it. Also this and the "stop loss bag" one can keep finish in it for a long long time and it wont dry up it's like an IV bag at the hospital. One can get both of these at "woodcraft" on the internet. I hope this helps

 

[LME]

Many years ago, probably forty-five or more, I took a short series of evening classes in furniture restoration. The instructor only ever used bronze wool. Since that time, so do I. Bronze wool, unlike fine steel wool, does not leave minute shreds in the wood grain - shreds which eventually oxidise and cause small black blemished to appear, often underneath that carefully-applied final coat of varnish. Although it might not be varnish that you apply to your gun stock, the damage that can be 'achieved' using steel wool is not to be ignored, so I take no chances.

At the risk of causing offence, I'm showing a stock that I refinished from a 'wood wreck' in 2001. It has around 20 coats of Danish oil on it, finished with stock wax. This photo was taken ten minutes ago.

View attachment 140373

I'd very much like to learn what Mr Person uses when he is preparing a piece of wood for more finishing.

Love the fiish! It is what I strive for on a project!

 

[dave_person]

Dave person, you should post photos, Just saying.

Hi,
Perhaps before making such statements you might actually read the whole thread. I posted photos on page 1 and always post photos particularly when discussing finishes. I reckon you owe me an apology. And you have the nerve to complain about taking advice from some "anonymous" person when my name is in plain view. Where are your pictures of your work and why do you remain anonymous?

dave

 

[HighUintas]

Hi @dave_person , is your favorite Sutherland wells tung oil finish the most water resistant you've found?

I'm trying to figure out what is most authentic looking, reasonable difficulty level of application for a beginner, and most water resistant.