Traditional peep sights for hawken

[taylorh]

Hello Friends,
I've got a tc hawken and don't like the factory adjustable sights. In the past I have simply replaced them with fixed sights, but on this rifle I would like to replace the barrel mounted adjustable sights with a tang mounted peep sight. Is this historically correct? Were peep sights used by our pioneer forefathers? If they did I'm sure they didn't look like the allen key adjustable peep sights offered by tc. Are there any commercially available peep sights that are correct for use on a hawken from the early 19th century?
Thanks,
Taylor in Texas

 

[MikeC]

Well the TC Hawken although a great rifle is not truely an accurate representation of a hawken rifle, actually not even close so if your looking for a peep sight for it I would recommand the TC Hunter Peep Sight. I had one on a renegade I owned and it fit perfectly, looks right and works great.

 

[tg]

" Are there any commercially available peep sights that are correct for use on a hawken from the early 19th century?"

The fact that the commercial Hawkens are not true replicas is no reason not to try and find a period type sight and bullet I might add, the "what the hey it ain't close so it does not matter" is a pretty weak argument for your question, some of these "Hawken" guns do resemble guns from the 1850's/60's so look for a sight from that period, I think TOTW has some and there are likely others here that will offer other sources or more advise that reflects ones lack of interest or knowledge of gun history, just because your gun is not a true replica does not mean that you cannot used period type accesories and get a bit closer to the past, and enjoy the added challenge that the early advancements in gun technology gun offer without having to resort to 21st century equipment, some have posted pics of home made peeps, probably not unlike those on medivial crossbows, do some research in the various vendors catologs, being carefull not to accept all that is presented as the gosphel, (note the vendors claims but confirm,)and you can have a nice basical period outfit without the modern stuff, it may not be 100% but far better tan the 50% or less you will have from following questionable advise.Enjoy the journey, you will get back much more than you invest if you folow the traditional path.

 

[MikeC]

Tg...So do you have an opinion or what. :rotf:

 

[tg]

"Tg...So do you have an opinion or what"

Yes...typically the right one :grin: I always try to steer folks toward the traditional side of the coin so to speak, if they try it and don't like it that is the way things go at times, but I do believe they should have as much info about the traditional aspect and historical impact and information about these guns as possible so they can make an informed choice as to which path they choose,and there is a lot of "missinformation floating around, much of it straight from the manufactures in their advertizments, and untill this computer age dawned there was little hope of the truth finding its way to the surface, that has changed now and one can search for period sights/bullets and most any aspect/accesory one would like to learn about, I don't care what choice they make on the different issues that come up from time to time, I just hope they make it an informed choice,and there is quite often a gauntlet of half-truths, claims and definitions made by very loosely defined and marginaly related items or concepts, a forum like this is a good place to learn as much as we know about how it really was in the past, then put it to use or ignore it as one sees fit.

 

[MikeC]

"Tg...So do you have an opinion or what"

Yes...typically the right one :grin: I always try to steer folks toward the traditional side of the coin so to speak, if they try it and don't like it that is the way things go at times, but I do believe they should have as much info about the traditional aspect and historical impact and information about these guns as possible so they can make an informed choice as to which path they choose,and there is a lot of "missinformation floating around, much of it straight from the manufactures in their advertizments, and untill this computer age dawned there was little hope of the truth finding its way to the surface, that has changed now and one can search for period sights/bullets and most any aspect/accesory one would like to learn about, I don't care what choice they make on the different issues that come up from time to time, I just hope they make it an informed choice,and there is quite often a gauntlet of half-truths, claims and definitions made by very loosely defined and marginaly related items or concepts, a forum like this is a good place to learn as much as we know about how it really was in the past, then put it to use or ignore it as one sees fit.

Now thats a mouth-full of opinion. :grin: :rotf: :v

 

[Zonie]

Perhaps, but I agree with it.

The original post asked "Is this historically correct? Were peep sights used by our pioneer forefathers? ".
He didn't ask of his Hawken was historically correct and, indeed, although it is not representative of a real Hawken it is a fair representation of many of the half stocked guns that were made from the late 1840's onward.

I agree with tg that making knowledge of our past and of the things that were used then is important and indeed, it is a large part of the reason this forum exists.

Whether people want to make use of that knowledge is up to them. :v

 

[tg]

"I agree with tg"

Now that is getting just plain scary :rotf:

 

[MikeC]

Texan...I was just pointing something out to you to maybe try and simplify your search to what is readily available and will fit, look good and function as designed.

I figured you are a big boy and would take my statement as one of just trying to hopefully be helpful in the event you were possibly jumping through hoops to be historically correct. Sorry I got your parents mad. :nono: :v

BTW I'm no expert but I don't believe there is evidence of an original hawken ever fitted with a peep-sight although what someone did with one after they purchased it, anything is possible. Try shooting Don Stith an email or give him a call he may be able to guide you in the right direction.

 

[tg]

It is probably best just to put the Hawken name on the back burner and look for a peep of the period that there were guns that most closely resembled what many mistakenly call Hawkens todaym the stufdf is out there and usualy does not take a great deal more effort than to fall back on the modern design type, I only suggest this as it was the direction the original post was directed.You can take a TC "Hawken" put a primitive front and rear sight on it and have a reasonable fascimile of a ML from the late ML period which is good enough for most from a PC/traditional approach, often we tend to lean toward the modern stuff very quickly when other options are there, fine if that is ones plan but I sensed a bit of a taste for the history of the ML's in the gentlemans initial post and hope he finds something that fills his needs, and knows his questions are always welcome here and a barage of options is not meant to disuade him from his quest only to offer as many viewpoints and information and possible so his choices come from a position of strength, not missinformation and gimicks and claims aimed only at maintaining a market share, amd I am certain I speak for us all in welcoming him to the forum if the hands have not allready been extended.

 

[Zonie]

Getting back to the original question, first off I have never seen a photo of a 1830-1840 half stock with a peep sight that I think was original to the gun.

Quoting Ned Roberts book THE MUZZLE-LOADING CAP LOCK RIFLE BONANZA BOOKS, NY 1952,
"Practically all the flint-lock and percussion-lock hunting rifles that had been in use by the pioneer hunter-riflemen up to about 1840, were fitted with the simple open front and rear sights...The earliest attempt that I have found to improve these sights was on a Pennsylvania made rifle by John Henry, bearing the date of 1835, which had a low silver bead front sight, about 1/16 inch diameter and a very dark blue steel stem and two-leaf rear sight with U shaped notches having one leaf stamped "10" and the other higher one marked "20"...

Previous to about 1840, very few strictly target rifles had been made in this country as the demand for rifles up to that time had been for practical "all around" arms chiefly for use in hunting or war, and for this purpose the plain open sights appear to have been generally satisfactory... (pg 29)

Writing about the period after 1840 of a few guns made in the Eastern part of the U.S. :

"The hunting and target rifles...were fitted with the usual shaded pin-head front, an open V-notch rear sight, and a peep sight with folding disk top screwing into, the upper tang of the arm thus making them as near an "all around" rifle as possible..."

"There was quite a variety of folding disc top peep sights in use on rifles of this kind, each maker having a design that he, personally, considered the best. However, they were all made so as to permit folding the disc top down toward the muzzle, to allow the unobstructed use of the open rear sight in connection with the front sight when using the rifle for hunting purposes.
Certain makers instead of threading the peep sight though the upper tang of the stodk, and possibly weakening that, attached it to the breech of the barrel with small screws let into the long end of an L shaped piece of steel with the other vertical end extending some four inches back of the break-off, having a small peep hole in the center of it, through which aim was taken when using the rifle for target work..." (p 31)

Obviously I can't quote all that Mr Roberts had to say in his great book but it would appear that yes, some target shooters used peep sights however no mention of Plains style hunting rifles with them was made.

As for sights that come nearer to what "might" have existed, I'm sure the peep sight made by Thompson Center is much closer than the typical Micrometer scaled screw adjustable peep sights found on rifles like my Anchutz made by Lyman and others.
Although the TC peep sight doesn't come close to matching the type of sights Mr. Roberts speaks of, its simplicity IMO makes it a fair choice.
A TC style rear peep sight:

The "ladder" type sights that attach to the tang are good only for long range target shooting. The "ladder" also folds towards the butt of the rifle and will do its best to poke you in the eye if you fold it down and then shoot the gun.

A ladder style rear sight on my Tryon:

Another peep sight that is sold by Dixie Gunworks is period correct for certain target guns like my Schuetzen. This sight needs a very tall front sight to be usable.

Were I you, I would go with the TC tang mounted peep sight.

 

[tg]

Good imformative post Zonie, I like it much better than the typical " peep sights are traditional because they had them on crossbows in the 14th century" or " a peep is a peep whether it is a type for 1850 or 1998 they are all traditional" hope the poster gleaned some insight from your efforts.....wanna talk about traditional bullets? hell they're all the same ain't they? minnie ball, maxie ball, Buffaloe bullets, Buffaloe chips! enough, lest I degress farther into the void of that which cannot be validated by shared nomenclature alone.

 

[BrownBear]

As I recall there's at least one example of a plains rifle with a peep in this assemblage of guns. May be more, but I don't have time right now to wait for a bunch of pics to load up on my slow dialup so I can verify.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ijust looked, BrownBear: I didn't see any peeps on those guns. Some very fine examples of half stock plains rifles, but no peeps.

 

[brubincam]

-----"jeepers creepers where'd you get those peepers ? jeepers creepers where'd you get those eyes?"----- :shake: :shake: :shake:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Would you mind telling me what you are talking about? I just rechecked the site BrownBear links us to, and scanned down the entire column of pictured rifles.

NO PEEP SIGHTS are evident. All have what appear to be standard buckhorn rear sights mounted out on the barrel over the forearm.

MY " Peeps " are just fine. Are yours?????? :shocked2: :hmm:

 

[Bountyhunter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeepers_Creepers_(song)

Johnny Mercer--1938

Everybody knows that.

 

[longcruise]

If they did I'm sure they didn't look like the allen key adjustable peep sights offered by tc.

They are a good useful sight that stays put. I have one that I put on and off my TC when playing with load development. But, like you said, you want something more historically correct.

Track has in there catalog an aperture sight that attaches to the barrel and extends back over the tang. I can't find it on their web site It seems to come close to the description zonie posted when he quoted Roberts on sights. I do recall that the description warned that the sight needed to be removed in order to take a barrel out of a hooked breech.

 

[tg]

"Getting back to the original question, first off I have never seen a photo of a 1830-1840 half stock with a peep sight that I think was original to the gun"

That is an imnteresting point considering all the sidelocks with peeps and the owners claiming that they are PC cause peeps go back a long ways, always something new to learn around here.

 

[rebel727]

While not pc I outfitted this "Hawken" with Creedmore and globe sights. While they're great for target work they're next to worthless for hunting. I'm getting a new barrel for it hopefully by next weekend and it will have(and keep)traditional sights on it.