Touch Hole ?

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castnshoot

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In the eyes of the law, is a cannon with out a touch hole considered a fire arm or just an ornament?
 

sc45-70

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In the eyes of the ATFE
A cannon WITH a touch hole IS A LAWN ORNAMENT.
AS long as it has a muzzle loading barrel.
Federal law does not consider muzzle loading guns firearms!
SC45-70
 

garrettep3

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So could that be interpreted to mean that they are exempt from laws prohibiting the discharge of firearms within city limits ? Anybody have experience with this ?
 

sc45-70

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NO!
Your state or city may have laws or ordnances forbidding it. You would have to check with the city in which you want to fire it.
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Fred_Dwyer

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is a cannon with out a touch hole considered a fire arm or just an ornament?
The pertinent question is, "Is it capable of firing a projectile?"
No touch-hole....then just an ornament.

Ya gotta think about it sensibly. Inside the city-limits? Would it be OK to launch a 6 pounder over your neighbors house?
 

TheDoubleD

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sc45-70 said:
In the eyes of the ATFE
A cannon WITH a touch hole IS A LAWN ORNAMENT.
AS long as it has a muzzle loading barrel.
Federal law does not consider muzzle loading guns firearms!
SC45-70

Care to provide a specific citation to support that position.
 

sc45-70

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The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618
Sec. 921 chapter 16 The term "antique firearm" definition. Paragraph (A) States that any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,percussion cap)manufactured in or before 1898
or
Paragraph (B)
any replica of any firearm in paragraph (A) if such replica-
(i)is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire amunition,
or
(ii)uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;
or
(C)any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute and which can not fire fixed ammunition.

Is this enough or do you want more info?
The BATFE does not regulate "antique firearms".
SC45-70
 

TheDoubleD

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sc45-70 said:
The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618
Sec. 921 chapter 16 The term "antique firearm" definition. Paragraph (A) States that any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,percussion cap)manufactured in or before 1898
or
Paragraph (B)
any replica of any firearm in paragraph (A) if such replica-
(i)is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire amunition,
or
(ii)uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;
or
(C)any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute and which can not fire fixed ammunition.

Is this enough or do you want more info?
The BATFE does not regulate "antique firearms".
SC45-70
This is different than:

sc45-70 said:
In the eyes of the ATFE
A cannon WITH a touch hole IS A LAWN ORNAMENT.
AS long as it has a muzzle loading barrel.
Federal law does not consider muzzle loading guns firearms!
SC45-70
Antique muzzle loaders and their replicas if made before 1899 yes, but what about muzzle loaders made after 1899 that are not replicas?

I have heard it said there is a provision, so what you say may be true, but I have never seen the reference,do you have that?
 

sc45-70

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Paragraph (C)
ANY MUZZLELOADING rifle, muzzleloading shotgun,or muzzleloading pistol which is designed to use black powder or black powder substitute, and can not fire fixed ammunition.
Since has BATFE does not regulate "antiquefirearms" any MUZZLELOADING firearm is comsidered an antique.
SC45-70
 

TheDoubleD

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sc45-70 said:
The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618
Sec. 921 chapter 16 The term "antique firearm" definition. Paragraph (A) States that any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,percussion cap)manufactured in or before 1898
or
Paragraph (B)
any replica of any firearm in paragraph (A) if such replica-
(i)is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire amunition,
or
(ii)uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;
or
(C)any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute and which can not fire fixed ammunition.
Went right over my head.

It says "Paragraph (A)", then "Paragraph (B)". But it doesn't say "Paragraph (C)" just "(C)". I was reading that as "(C)" was part of the replica definition. It is not, it would have to be "(iii)" to be part of Replica.

Thanks for clearing that up...
 

TheDoubleD

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I know where my confusion lies. What you posted is from GCA and is for guns under .50.

The definition I am looking for is the one that says muzzleloaders over .50 cal that are not a replica of pre 1899 are exempt. NFA

The Antique weapons under NFA cover pre 1899 and replica's, but not post 1898 non replica like the GCA does for under .50.

Some say there is an exemption for post 1899 over .50 cal and muzzleloading, but I can find it.
 

sc45-70

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There is no Federal law to that effect.
NFA does not regulate "antique firearms" Unless they fire commercially avalable fixed ammunition, and fall under the definition of a NFA weapon.

All laws pertaining to "antique firearms" are in
921 (a) (16) regulation 178.11
5845 (g) regulation 179.11
921 (a) (3), 5845 (a) regulation 47.11, 178.11, 179.11

Look in the index section of your regulation book under Antique Firearm.
None of these regulations say anything about caliber.

I think the regulation you are looking for is paragraph (C)
Since there is no maximum caliber listed it covers all calibers.
Hope this helps. :thumbsup:
SC45-70
 

TheDoubleD

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sc45-70 said:
There is no Federal law to that effect.
NFA does not regulate "antique firearms" Unless they fire commercially avalable fixed ammunition, and fall under the definition of a NFA weapon.

All laws pertaining to "antique firearms" are in
921 (a) (16) regulation 178.11
5845 (g) regulation 179.11
921 (a) (3), 5845 (a) regulation 47.11, 178.11, 179.11

Look in the index section of your regulation book under Antique Firearm.
None of these regulations say anything about caliber.

I think the regulation you are looking for is paragraph (C)
Since there is no maximum caliber listed it covers all calibers.
Hope this helps. :thumbsup:
SC45-70

Not looking for antiques exemption. That one is nailed and quite clear.

I am looking for the exemption that would apply to a muzzle loading gun of greater than 50 caliber that was made after 1898 and is not a replica.

Section 5845 Definitions (f)(2) destructive device describe the over .50 caliber rule.

The device I am thinking of is the muzzle loading versions of the stokes mortar.
 

sc45-70

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Section 5845 Definitions (f) (2)destructive devices.
ONLY APPLY TO FIREARMS THAT FIRE SELF CONTAINED AMMUNITION IT DOES NOT APPLY TO MUZZLE LOADING FIREARMS no matter the date of manufacture. The definition of an antique firearm in the NFA section is basicly the same as the GCA version.

Paragraph (C)states ANY muzzleloading rifle ,muzzle loading shotgun or muzzleloading pistol.

Since in paragraph (C) there is NO definition of what constitutes a muzzleloading rifle,shotgun, or pistol, NO mention of the date of manufacture of a muzzleloader, and NO bore size requirement.
AS long as it loads from the muzzle it is LEGAL!
:thumbsup:
SC45-70
 

sc45-70

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In response to DD.
The NFA, Title 26, US Code, Chapter 53

5845. Definitions

(g) Antique Firearms

The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammununtion and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)

I hope this helps.

SC45-70
 

TheDoubleD

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sc45-70 said:
Section 5845 Definitions (f) (2)destructive devices.
ONLY APPLY TO FIREARMS THAT FIRE SELF CONTAINED AMMUNITION IT DOES NOT APPLY TO MUZZLE LOADING FIREARMS no matter the date of manufacture. The definition of an antique firearm in the NFA section is basicly the same as the GCA version.

Paragraph (C)states ANY muzzleloading rifle ,muzzle loading shotgun or muzzleloading pistol.

Since in paragraph (C) there is NO definition of what constitutes a muzzleloading rifle,shotgun, or pistol, NO mention of the date of manufacture of a muzzleloader, and NO bore size requirement.
AS long as it loads from the muzzle it is LEGAL!
:thumbsup:
SC45-70
Nope that's not it, this definition only applies to weapon covered by GCA. GCA doesn't extend to NFA weapons.

NFA covers weapons over .50
 

TheDoubleD

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Yeah I am going to have to, I think.

I am getting ready to build bowling ball mortar replica of a British 1840 pattern 8 inch mortar. Now that is clear enough replica muzzle loading.

A fellow asked about making a stokes style bowling ball mortar. I had the code for it a long time ago, and the two definitions we discussed are not it.

Thanks...
 

KABAR2

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sc45-70 said:
The Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618
Sec. 921 chapter 16 The term "antique firearm" definition. Paragraph (A) States that any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,percussion cap)manufactured in or before 1898
or
Paragraph (B)
any replica of any firearm in paragraph (A) if such replica-
(i)is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire amunition,

or
(ii)uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;
or
(C)any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute and which can not fire fixed ammunition.

Is this enough or do you want more info?
The BATFE does not regulate "antique firearms".
SC45-70



As far as DD's are concerned the 50 cal relates to fixed ammunition not muzzel loading cannon,
I read the "C" section would apply in this aplacation as long as it is a muzzel loader does not use fixed ammunition and does not use a modern
ignition system I would day you would be fine,

As far as the stokes mortars this has been an area
of contention for years because of their modern design, IF the mortar tube will not accept modern
mortar ammunition.... say build a 60mm look alike with a 57mm bore then you have a muzzel loader that will not accept modern fixed ammunition and should satisfy ATFE as to intent. If you build it
with a 60mm bore they will consider it readyly convertable to a DD as all you would have to do
is drill and tap the breach for a fixed firing pin
and it would now be a DD. intent is everything.
 
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