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Touch Hole too high... help!

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Eterry

70 Cal.
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The Early Lancaster I built has been plagued with hang fires, misfires, slow fires. The only way i can get reliable ignition is to fill the pan with powder.

I tried a normal prime of null B and 7fg, got misfires with both.

I took it to a Spring muzzleloader match, I watched many fine custom flintlocks in action. Mine was terrible by contrast.

After the match I was attempting to sight in and several gathered around because the pan fired but the main charge didn't.
After looking at it, Almost to a man, they said the touch hole was too high.

I don't have a touch hole liner in the barrel.

The hole is above the pan, close to the top of the flat.
(I didn't drill the touch hole, btw).

What are my options?
Thanks in advance.
Et
 
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Is the hole above the frizzen when it is shut? You might weld up the hole and re-drill it. You might also thread the hole, and solder a screw in it. Then drill the hole where you want it. People will say the screw will blow out, but the drums on caplocks don't blow out or the clean-out screws and nipples either, and they aren't soldered.
 
All you need to do is install a White Lightnin touch hole liner. The larger hole you will drill for the liner should wipe out your present direct vent touch hole. Make sure you center your drilling where the liner's hole will be in the proper "sunset" position.
 
Isn't the touch hole supposed to be in line with the top of the flat of the pan? I have Chuck Dixon's Muzzleloader Builders book and in his book when you drill for the touch hole it shows diagrams of this area to be drilled whereas you make a line across the flats across the top of the pan and drill there. I have done so on my Smooth Bore and the touch-hole is on this imaginary line across the flats my gun fires just fine with the touch hole in that position
 
Got a picture? What size is the touch hole today? Is it a straight hole or is it relieved from inside the bore? A small, long, straight touch hole could be your problem.

As far as moving the hole, agree with Kanas Kid, needs a ridged setup like a Bridgeport type mill. If you try and do it with a drill it will want to follow the first hole (and or break your drill bit). Find a local machine shop and have them mill it. Maybe a 15 minute job at most.
 
Had the same issue on this flinter. Drilled and tapped my own liner, then drilled an offset touch hole at 'sunrise' ,coned on inside.
BTW, 'How old is your Grandmother'?
Cheers,
R
36 Smoothbore 1.JPG
 
Eterry:
You didn't say what size the barrel is at the breech or the caliber, or the size of the existing vent hole.

Without this information, I am just guessing but if the gun is a .50 caliber and the barrel measures 1" across the flats at the breech, the vent hole will be about .250 long.
If the vent hole is 1/16" in diameter that makes the hole's length 4 times longer than the hole. That's a LONG way for the flash from the pan to have to travel to get to the main powder charge. Even if the vent hole is a 5/64" diameter, a 1/4" wall makes the length of the hole 3.2 times longer than the vent diameter.

This is (IMO) the main reason a lot of the original flintlocks had a larger diameter hole cut from the inside of the barrel in line with the vent hole. Doing this shortens the length of the vent hole.
It is also the main reason vent liners have become so popular. All of the commercial vent liners sold on todays market have a larger diameter machined on the inside end of the liner to shorten the length of the actual vent.

Personally, I like the idea of installing a modern vent liner in your barrel with it located where it should be.
The most important thing to keep in mind is, the size of the tap drill for the new liners threads will have to be large enough to allow it to completely cut away or remove the existing vent hole. Only by doing this, will you end up with the complete, full threads the liner needs to seal the joint.

This probably will make a large vent liner that uses a 5/16-24 thread necessary.
Before ordering one of these, do a little layout work to see if it will work.

This can be done by first, making a mark on the side of the barrel that is in the right place for the vent. (Centered in the pan and in line with the top surface of the pan.) Then, as accuretly as you can, measure the distance from the mark to the "far side" of the existing vent hole. (The side that is farthest away from the mark.)
If this distance is less than .136" your in business. ( The tap drill for a 5/16-24 thread is a letter I, (.272 diameter) ) If it is up to 1/16" further away, you can still get the tap drill to remove all of the existing vent by moving the proposed liner location toward the existing vent hole. If that puts the new vent hole 1/16" away from the "ideal" location, don't worry about it not working. It will be close enough.

One thing to keep in mind though. If you need to locate the vent liner too far away from the "best" location there is a chance that the large 5/16-24 threads of the liner will break out of the barrel flat. From a safety standpoint, this is not a problem but, with the liner threads sticking out into the 45° flat above the side flat, it won't look very nice.

Let us know what you find and what you think you want to do. :)
 
Hmmmm.... Not good Kemosobi. :(

As deeply as the barrel is inlayed, putting the flash hole anywhere near the center of the barrel flat to make room for a normal vent liner thread will put it's new vent hole very close to the bottom of the pan.

Another possibility is for you to make your own vent liner using a smaller size thread screw than the 5/16" one I was talking about before. Also, your 13/16" barrel flats are .336 wide which doesn't leave much if any room for a 5/16" (.312") thread.

If it were mine, I would measure the distance from the edge of the existing vent hole that is closest to the edge of the barrel flat to the edge of the barrel flat. Then, adding in 1/2 of the vent hole diameter I would know the radius of a thread I might use for a home made vent liner.

If the distance from the center of the existing vent hole to the corner of the barrel flat is greater than .100, I could use a #10 screw for the new liner.
(A #10 screw thread is .190" in diameter so it would be small enough to prevent the thread from breaking out into the 45° flat.)

If this #10 screw would work, I would use the existing vent hole as a guide and drill it out using a #21 (.159") tap drill. I would then thread the hole with a #10-32 tap.

Then, I would buy a #10-32 stainless screw with over 1/2" of threads on its shank.

Cutting off a length of threads (I suggest something like .150 long.) I would then proceed to make my new liner.
Making a new vent liner with the inner end of it enlarged like modern vent liners is actually pretty easy.

Follow this link to see how I made a new vent liner just exactly like the one I'm suggesting that you consider:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/queen-anne-pistol-vent.19654/
 
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Ooo! That touch hole is actually above the top flats of the pan. Definitely too high. I'd think you could tap the existing hole, insert a screw the thickness of the barrel wall, then cut the head off the screw and file it flush with the outside of the barrel. Then center punch a new touch hole lower down on the barrel centered on the line near the pan then redrill a new flash hole
 
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When you get the vent lowered, if needed you can grind the bottom of the pan deeper to get the hole up out of the prime.
Looks like the barrel is inlet too deep relative to the lock.
 
Hi Ernest,
Actually, I don't think the hole is your problem. The size looks plenty large and the position is not too bad gauging from the photo. Moreover, if you do move the hole lower by installing a vent liner, it is perfectly fine to have the hole below the top of the pan. Larry Pletscher's flintlock tests published in Black Powder Magazine demonstrate that quite nicely. I am concerned that the hole is may be very close to the end of the breech plug and the builder may have notched the plug to clear it. Have you pulled the breech plug?

dave
 
Ooo! That touch hole is actually above the top flats of the pan. Definitely too high. I'd think you could tap the existing hole, insert a screw the thickness of the barrel wall, then cut the head off the screw and file it flush with the outside of the barrel. Then center punch a new touch hole lower down on the barrel centered on the line near the pan then redrill a new flash hole

Exactly, :thumb: except with a slight variation, needing only the existing hole...

I've seen this once before. I'm not certain this was the best solution, but it worked fine for the owner and the rifle. As above, the fellow removed the vent liner, and made a plug with a slot that fit the portion tapped into the barrel. Then, he simply drilled his own hole lower down on his newly made "plug", not centered as a commercial vent liner would come from the factory. So he then had a basic, custom vent liner for his barrel. Then he used a slightly larger drill bit to counter sink the newly made liner on the inside where it would come into contact with the powder, to make his own "cone", and installed the finished custom vent liner into his rifle barrel. Worked fine after that. Maybe he got lucky?

VENT new hole.jpg

LD
 
I find these kind of topics fascinating and look forward to see what the answers will be.

While I cannot contribute to what the answer is, I do have a question after looking at the picture.

Would it be possible to put JB weld in the bottom of the flash pan to raise the level up closer to the flash hole? Was wondering if that would work.
 
Hi Ernest,
I definitely think you need to look at the breech plug before doing anything with the hole. Do a simple test, push a wire into the hole and well into the barrel. Does it hit any obstructions or bend as it goes in? If you go to shoot, put a vent wire in place and then load. Then remove the wire and shoot. If I am right, the gun will shoot with no problem.

dave
 
Hi Ernest,
I definitely think you need to look at the breech plug before doing anything with the hole. Do a simple test, push a wire into the hole and well into the barrel. Does it hit any obstructions or bend as it goes in? If you go to shoot, put a vent wire in place and then load. Then remove the wire and shoot. If I am right, the gun will shoot with no problem.

dave

the same thought came to me on the depth of the breechplug.
 
The o.p. did mention his gun was able to fire but only after filling the pan. That indicates a high placed touch hole. I would think a hole that intersects the breech plug would show issues even with a properly placed touch hole, unless said plug was notched. . In the latter it was documented that some old timers would notch breech plugs on purpose that had locks placed far back in the stock, and with touch holes in the normal sunset position. They had no issues with firing.

My only concern with making your own vent liner is how do you keep it in place? Most commercially made units come with a built-in shoulder to prevent them from being turned in to far into the barrel
 
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