Too Much Powder ?

[zimmerstutzen]

Evidence suggests there isn't? Maybe maybe not. I have had unburned powder land on the cardboard in front of the muzzle, although it was minimal compared to the ejecta

 

[Sinner]

Actually, there's lots of evidence that unburned powder is still present, which is the point of this thread. Enough evidence that Colerain Barrels talks of it on their website. I doubt it would cause increase in recoil. People have lots of opinions, but opinions aren't fact.

 

[Patrick Thomas]

Why? That load is perfectly adequate.
Shot placement is critical, and no amount of "up-loading" will make a difference if you can't keep the ball on target.

Obviously, shot placement is key, no matter the tool. I’ve never shot anything bigger than whitetail deer with a muzzleloader, so the information that you and Zonie provided is appreciated.

 

[Carbon 6]

Actually, there's lots of evidence that unburned powder is still present, which is the point of this thread. Enough evidence that Colerain Barrels talks of it on their website. I doubt it would cause increase in recoil. People have lots of opinions, but opinions aren't fact.

Right, opinions aren't facts. Just like Colerain's opinion about unburnt powder (yes companies have opinions and beliefs too). It's an opinion because it is unsupported by evidence or data (at least we haven't seen any yet). At this point there has been no evidence presented for unburnt powder. It's really impossible to have unburnt powder. You can however have unburnable powder, such as powder that has been contaminated and could not combust.

I really don't know why the belief in the myth of unburnt powder still exists.

Previously you stated;

It's easy to prove or disprove. I've seen it done. I tried it myself. Different results can be seen using different guns, powders, etc., but it's VERY EASY. If you want to try your own experiments it only takes time, a rifle, powder, and a sheet.

Please explain your testing in greater detail .

 

[zimmerstutzen]

My testing method? A friend had a modular house delivered. Parts of the house that were unfinished, were covered with huge sheets of heavy cardbord. ten feet x 4 feet. White on one side gray on the other. I used a heavy barreled 45 caliber pistol 9 inches long and loaded it with 80 grains of powder and stood five feet back from the cardboard and fired 10 times over the cardboard. then 2 of us lifted the cardboard from the sides so the "stuff" that settled on the cardboard concentrated to the middle. then tipped the cardboard up and poured all of the "stuff" into a small pie pan and looked through it with a magnifying lense. Most appeared to be burned solids, but a small amount was unburned grains of 2f. We eventually put the entire amount into a small pile and lit it with a match. it burned through quickly, much slower than just powder, but it burned. We only had about two or three teaspoons full anyway. The conclusion we drew is that a small amount of unburned powder can survive and land ahead. There may well be other barrels and loads that do not have the same results. I think it is technically untrue to say that it cannot happen. It may also be entirely true to say that it does not happen with most loads and barrels.

 

[Carbon 6]

Still many questions are unanswered. Until we can establish the cause we cannot make assumptions.
There is a laundry list of possible explanations for your results.

 

[Carbon 6]

. I think it is technically untrue to say that it cannot happen. .

Absolutely! In fact we can cause it to happen on purpose.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

A laundry list? do tell, please.

 

[yakipreacher]

Completely understand the feedback loop of which you speak. I just acquired a custom .54 cal Plains rifle. It is lightly used but new to me. The former owner stated that it likes 80 gr of 3f and 530 ball. I plan to start there and work up to a more powerful but accurate load. I want to use it for black bear and elk and found this thread useful for that.

I would carry a pistol also if your going after bear. They shot single shots way back when but I'd like to have a follow up! I tend to think that why they seem to picture pirates with pistols tucked in everywhere! Hunters can become the hunted rather easily once they are out of ammo!

 

[Okie Hog]

I'm just adding the words from a well-respected barrel manufacturer.

In this case "well respected" loses to well informed.

 

[yakipreacher]

Completely understand the feedback loop of which you speak. I just acquired a custom .54 cal Plains rifle. It is lightly used but new to me. The former owner stated that it likes 80 gr of 3f and 530 ball. I plan to start there and work up to a more powerful but accurate load. I want to use it for black bear and elk and found this thread useful for that.

I get confused over the load and caliber... My understanding was 3f up to 45 cal but 2f over 45ca. You are talking 80 gr of 3f for 54. I generally have loaded out 65 gr of 2f for all of them. Am I missing something here? I have both 50 cal thompsons and 58 cal antiques (Springfield and Enfield).

 

[Carbon 6]

A laundry list? do tell, please.

Let's do it together, I'll start by naming lube contamination as one cause.

Now you name one cause.


I would like to mention that once a cause is identified we can test variables of that individual cause alone. This gives us a broader understanding of the mechanisms that enable the anomaly to occur.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I doubt it would cause increase in recoil.

Recoil is a product of the weight of the entire ejecta. Or it is a sum of everything that is stuffed down the barrel whether or not it ignites. e.g. wads, patching, etc.

 

[crankshaft]

For accuracy...my .58 musket is most accurate with 45 gr. 2ff
even at 100 yds ,
The previous owner shot NSSA and dialed it in over time. 500 grain Bullet. Still packs quite a punch at 100yrs.
One would think it needed 75 grains or more .

 

[Sinner]

Carbon 6, I'll agree to disagree. I have proved it to myself, as well as a myriad of others. One thing I know for certain, no one change change the mind of someone who doesn't want to believe, no matter what evidence is presented. Unburnt is unburnt, so matter what the cause.
Those "well informed" people who deny it can and does happen doesn't negate the actual fact.

 

[Sinner]

I think some people are entirely missing the real meaning of this post to put forth their ideology.
The main point is: Test your loads to see what works best for you and your purpose. There is definitely a point of "too much" powder, when you consider what little if any gain you might imagine you're getting. Whether or not as an individual you believe it's because un-burnt powder is present or that the excess is burnt outside the barrel is irrelevant.

 

[Carbon 6]

Carbon 6, I'll agree to disagree. I have proved it to myself, as well as a myriad of others. One thing I know for certain, no one change change the mind of someone who doesn't want to believe, no matter what evidence is presented..

I'm still waiting for "evidence". So far all I've seen is the testimony of unpublished "believers".

Sinner, please explain to me your method of testing so I may duplicate it scientifically. and achieve the same results as you did.

 

[hanshi]

The only thing on the snow, concrete or sheet in front of the muzzle when the gun is fired is fouling.

 

[Carbon 6]

I think care should be taken not to deliberately create conditions( intentional or otherwise) that cause "un-burnt" powder to be deliberately "blown out then end of the barrel" causing a false positive.

 

[Sinner]

I had a .54 CVA mountain rifle back in 1980-84 that I loaded 120 grains of fffg behind a .530 round ball with a lightly lubed (mink oil if I remember right) patch. Shot over a sheet. (no one was under it!). We then picked up the corners, examined the contents, and light it on fire. I was with a Black powder club in Kodiak Alaska. It appeared to by around 5 grains give or take.
ONCE again, the real issue is whether or not you believe that there remains unburt powder (I could care less), there IS a point of wasting powder in higher loads. Whether or not you believe the powder is unburnt or burnt outside the barrel, it no longer benefits or aids in any way the propulsion of the ball.
??? How would you create a "false positive" if you believe it's impossible to have unburnt powder exit the muzzle?