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User_Dan

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Wow mustang you are confused.

Volume measures are the quick and easy way to load charges for the average plinker, hunter whatever. Extreme example is a cup of plastic BBs and a cup of Lead BBs, same diameter projectiles, same volume, yet drastically different weights.

Grains are a unit of measurement, 7000 of them make up 1 pound. If you look at a grain of powder it does not equal a grain in the powder measuring terminology.
 
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Ya but, once you found that specific accurate weight, can't you transfer that mass to a different "volume measure"?

Then;
Do you "tap" the measure to settle the volume and add more, or just pour freely to get the proper weight?
(see how I used weight and volume in the same question?)
Yes, you can. And I used to do exactly this before I got an auto-dispenser/trickler for my digital scale.

I would use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure and adjust the volume chamber until I got exactly the amount I wanted verified by a scale.

Then, if you do it the same way every time, the Lee Perfect Powder Measure could drop black powder within +/- .1 grains pretty consistently.

But, the trick is "if you do it the same way every time". For me, this meant swinging the charge handle up to load, waiting a beat for the chamber to fill, swinging the charge handle down to dump, and then giving the charge handle a gentle "thump" to shake loose any loose powder.

By doing this the same way every time, I could get very accurate volumetric drops, and fast.

However, I now use an RCBS Chargemaster Lite (used to use Chargemaster 1500 with dispenser) and it automatically dispenses the same exact amount, by weight, every time. It is slower than volumetric dispensing, but requires zero effort to get consistent results.

Steve

P.S. None of the above equipment is rated for or approved for use by the manufacturer for black powder. I do it anyway.
 
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Grains are a unit of weight. If you want to really know the exact number of grains of something you have, you need a precision scale to find out.


1 grain = 1/7000th of a pound. Thus there are 7000 grains in 1 pound.

You can approximate a weight of powder using a volumetric measure. If you do it right, you can get very consistent results. Most, if not all, modern smokeless reloading presses dispense smokeless powder by volume. The user is supposed to manually double-check every 10th round with a scale to confirm that the volumetric drop is functioning within desired parameters.
 
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Blackpowder Shooters , especially "match shooters" are notorious for over complicating everything

Even though I'm riding high off of a recent Turkey Shoot win, I'm not a competition shooter and neither are 98% of the people who shoot guns recreationally

Over complicating stuff can take away from the enjoyment of just shooting .

I don't need to weigh my charges to shoot my .58 rifle at 100 yards, on a cold range day when I just want some smoke therapy and to see a cluster of holes in the paper bad guy
 
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For me, shooting is a mind game. My mind is at ease when I know I have eliminated all possible variables and my sights and load have been proven on the bench. As soon as I start questioning the load or my gun my shooting goes to pot.

Are we going past the point of diminishing returns? Maybe.

But I can tell you this, I've seen competition shooters come and go who never seemed to pull it together when I'm sure all they really needed was to invest the time at the range working up a good load and then sticking to it. If I had a nickle for every time I heard "I must have picked up some hard lead" I'd be rich. I even put it on my "excuses" shirt. :)


IMG_7124.JPG
 
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If it works , it works. I spent weeks trying to get "Nessler Balls" i.e. Lee Slugs to group at 100 through my .69 Smoothbore, and one day I cracked the code and 60gr of 2f and a lubed slug , I shot a 10 shot group at 100 yards that would make you think my bore was rifled.

If I changed anything, more powder, a different slug, a different lube the group probably would have opened up a lot
 

LME

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You can weigh each shot, you can use a volumetric measure. you can just dump powder down the barrel any way you please and most people want know what helps or hurts their accuracy. How many of us will say I am the problem not my load? I have been shooting a long time and have had more than one lucky surprise that improved my accuracy. I still look for things I am doing because most huge improvents I made in accuracy was changing something I was doing other than being a grain or two off per load.
 

Snake Pleskin

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I do not think that back in the day anyone was "this" concerned about the weight of their charge. They has a measure or not, poured it into the barrel and that was that. I shot with an individual that used to put the ball in the palm of his had, then poured powder over it until it was " covered", and that was his measure? Seemed to work for him! IMHO
 

dave951

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I do not think that back in the day anyone was "this" concerned about the weight of their charge. They has a measure or not, poured it into the barrel and that was that. I shot with an individual that used to put the ball in the palm of his had, then poured powder over it until it was " covered", and that was his measure? Seemed to work for him! IMHO
And you'd be dead wrong. Take time to research what competition shooters did "back in the day". And yes, they did weigh every charge. Also the fact that many argue weight v volume shows a lack of understanding of ammunition fundamentals, muzzleloading or otherwise. Not knowing simple fundamentals will be a huge obstacle to getting the best out of your gun assuming the nut behind the stock is properly torqued.

What folks fail to understand is many shooters (then and now) are satisfied with mediocrity. Bless their hearts, plink or hunt and enjoy. But, this satisfaction with mediocrity has led to misconceptions as to how accurate these guns can be when some attention to detail, consistent loading procedures and proper shooting technique are used. That attention to detail will cause those of us who strive for the best loads to be viewed as the crazy uncle in the attic by those happy with mediocrity. So I'll happily be the crazy uncle while I'm doing load development.
 
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I shot with an individual that used to put the ball in the palm of his had, then poured powder over it until it was " covered", and that was his measure? Seemed to work for him! IMHO
That was the method I once read was what was common back in the day. I think it was in a biography about Annie Oakley I read when I was in 6th grade
 

Snake Pleskin

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And you'd be dead wrong. Take time to research what competition shooters did "back in the day". And yes, they did weigh every charge. Also the fact that many argue weight v volume shows a lack of understanding of ammunition fundamentals, muzzleloading or otherwise. Not knowing simple fundamentals will be a huge obstacle to getting the best out of your gun assuming the nut behind the stock is properly torqued.

What folks fail to understand is many shooters (then and now) are satisfied with mediocrity. Bless their hearts, plink or hunt and enjoy. But, this satisfaction with mediocrity has led to misconceptions as to how accurate these guns can be when some attention to detail, consistent loading procedures and proper shooting technique are used. That attention to detail will cause those of us who strive for the best loads to be viewed as the crazy uncle in the attic by those happy with mediocrity. So I'll happily be the crazy uncle while I'm doing load development.
Not talking about competition, but basic day to day shooting. I do not think they were that particular, and when moving fast, they were not measuring grain for grain. IMHO
 

Snake Pleskin

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Each of my guns has a powder measure. I fill the measure and pour, patch and ball.
Then shoot. Some days are better than others so I don't blame the condiments for not shooting well, it's always me. I just leave it at that.
I use an antler measure for each of my rifles. Even so, every time you fil the measure it is different by some small degree. It is what it is. IMHO
 

Snake Pleskin

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And you'd be dead wrong. Take time to research what competition shooters did "back in the day". And yes, they did weigh every charge. Also the fact that many argue weight v volume shows a lack of understanding of ammunition fundamentals, muzzleloading or otherwise. Not knowing simple fundamentals will be a huge obstacle to getting the best out of your gun assuming the nut behind the stock is properly torqued.

What folks fail to understand is many shooters (then and now) are satisfied with mediocrity. Bless their hearts, plink or hunt and enjoy. But, this satisfaction with mediocrity has led to misconceptions as to how accurate these guns can be when some attention to detail, consistent loading procedures and proper shooting technique are used. That attention to detail will cause those of us who strive for the best loads to be viewed as the crazy uncle in the attic by those happy with mediocrity. So I'll happily be the crazy uncle while I'm doing load development.
Always used volume for BP, hence drop tubes etc. never weighed the charges unless it was for my Sharps cartridge, rifle for the BP matches, used in competition. If using a compressed or combo load of smokeless & BP then it was weighed.
 
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As a certified instructor, I have no issues explaining the differences to the new folks. It's not a difficult concept to grasp that cubic foot will hold more BBs than tennis balls and that's one way to explain the difference between 4f and 1f.

And yes, I weigh my competition charges when doing load development. Mass is mass, you can't revoke the laws of physics to suit personal taste.
That’s true Dave, but we might note that the space occupied by the tennis balls and the BBS is the same. That’s because both are spheres. Powder is not spherical of course. I have to think about the old rule of laying a ball in your hand and covering it with powder. We probably overthink a lot of things nowadays. I appreciate your being an instructor.
 

dave951

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Not talking about competition, but basic day to day shooting. I do not think they were that particular, and when moving fast, they were not measuring grain for grain. IMHO
I agree that”day to day” shooting by Joe Average doesn’t go to the extents competition shooters did and still will, but then again, they’re not competing.

Those who are into the buckskin rondy thing to just hunting probably won’t weigh charges and that’s ok for them but there is a part of the muzzleloading community very interested in wringing out every possible bit of performance, some for accuracy, others for power. Each pursuit has a different path and tolerance to variable control, read consistency.
 

dave951

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That’s true Dave, but we might note that the space occupied by the tennis balls and the BBS is the same. That’s because both are spheres. Powder is not spherical of course. I have to think about the old rule of laying a ball in your hand and covering it with powder. We probably overthink a lot of things nowadays. I appreciate your being an instructor.
Two different size spheres, but the count is different as is the exposed surface area and that is the concept to take away here. All black powder of a given composition has only one burn rate but there is a degree of control of pressure by changing the amount of surface area exposed to ignition meaning more powder of a given charge is burning in a 4f charge v a 2f even though the total mass is the same and overall energy delivered by the charge remains constant. The change is how quickly it is delivered.
 

Mustang65

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Each of my guns has a powder measure. I fill the measure and pour, patch and ball.
Then shoot. Some days are better than others so I don't blame the condiments for not shooting well, it's always me. I just leave it at that.
That powder measure relates to weight.
 
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