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Throwing hawks or knives in combat?

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Paul63

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Throwing hawks and knives for competition at events is great fun and is seen in many movies but is it documented that they were used in combat as throwing weapons?
Just curious because in combat it seems like throwing your weapon away would not be the best choice for survival in close range combat. :idunno:
 
You are right. Throwing away your last weapon is just plain foolish. :youcrazy:
There are references to tomahawks being thrown but, I'm sure, it was a very infrequent practice.
Besides, accurate throwing for both 'hawk and knife requires practice from a known distance. Not a likely instance in combat.
 
Agreed, one other thing is getting out of the way. One turn of of hawk is about eighteen feet. Unless someone is taken by surprise they have plenty of time to duck or step out of the way. A turn in a half or two turns or more one can stop and have lunch before the hawk or knife gets there.
The Franks threw small hawk like axes at enemy shield walls. The hop was to stick several in shields that could not be removed right away thus making the shield hard to maneuver or splintering it before the lines met for hand to hand. The Romans did the same things with their harpoon shaped spears. They would hit a shield and stick. The shaft would bend or the handle break off, it couldn’t be thrown back and could ruin the shield.
 
Well, no matter how much 21st-century thinking and supposing we apply to the question, it remains a historic fact that it was done in the day. A little or a lot I don't know, but just in my small database of primary items I've collected a few.

Gen. Samuel Dale 1772-1841, quoted in “The Life and times of Gen. Sam Dale, the Mississippi partisan”, by John Francis Hamtramck Claiborne:
“As the two boats approached, one of them hurled his scalping knife at me. It pierced the boat through and through, just grazing my thigh as it passed.”

_Indian Captivity: A true narrative of the capture of Rev. O. M. Spencer by the Indians, in the neighborhood of Cincinnati_ , in 1792, book printed 1834.
Describing the death of Gen. Butler of St. Clair’s expedition:
“It was during one of these charges, that the brave, but unfortunate Gen. Butler was killed. He had been mortally wounded early in the battle, and carried to his tent; and, determined to sell his life as dearly as possible, was there placed in a reclining posture, with a pair of pistols by his side. In pursuing our troops, retreating in their turn, two warriors at once espied him, and both anxious to plunder his person, as well as to take his scalp, rushed forward; the one only a few feet in advance of the other. The foremost Indian had but just entered his tent, when the general, leveling one pistol, shot him dead; but while in the act of presenting the second, received the stroke of the hurled tomahawk of the other, and instantly expired.”

Rev. Dr. Joseph Doddridge, "Notes on the Settlements and Indian Wars of the Western Parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania from 1763 to 1783"
“The other, being a poor runner, was pursued by an Indian who after a smart chase came close to him. The man then wheeled round and snapped his gun at the Indian. This he repeated several times. The Indian then threw his tomahawk at his head but missed him;”

The South-Carolina GAZETTE
September 13, 1760
CHARLES-TOWN
“At day light Mr. Miln, with the negro Abram, went in pursuit of the deserter as far as Twelve-mile river; but not overtaking him there, returned; and as they were crossing Crow-Creek, which is very near the fort, they were fired at by three Indians, who shot one of Abram's boots through and his horse under him, and as he fell threw a tomahawk which struck him on the back;”

Spencer Records memoir, Pioneer Experiences in Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Ohio and Indiana. 1766-1836
“They then sprung towards the old lady, one of them threw his tomahawk, and stuck it in a tree near her head: she however stuck to her saddle, and her horse soon carried her safe home.”

The Pennsylvania Gazette
June 30, 1757
PHILADELPHIA
“That in the Heighth of the Storm seven Indians killed and scalped one Trump in Allamingle, and left a Knife and Halbert sticking in his Body: That they made his Wife and Son Prisoners; but that the Woman escaped, tho' pursued so very closely by one of the Savages, that throwing his Tomahawk, it struck her in the Neck, and cut her badly, but the Wound is not dangerous; and the Son some Time after also made his Escape, and got safe in to Fort Lebanon, in Berks County.”

A History of the Daniel Boone National Forest, 1770-1970, by the U.S. Prk service:
“When Jemima Boone and the other girls were rescued from the Shawnee, one of them threw his tomahawk at Jemima but missed.”
Spence
 
Ah but Doddridge also wrote:

"Throwing the tomahawk was another boyish sport, in which many acquired considerable skill. The tomahawk with its handle of certain length will make a given number of turns in a given distance. Say in five steps it will strike with the edge, the handle downwards; at the distance of seven and a half, it will strike with the edge, the handle upwards, and so on. A little experience enabled the boy to measure the distance with the eye, when walking through the woods, and strike a tree with his tomahawk in any way he chose."

From the previous references for tomahawks, it seems Indians threw them a lot, but perhaps, for whites, it was a boy's pastime?

:idunno:

LD
 
Could be. Or maybe the boy, when he grew into a man, was deadly in combat with the thrown tomahawk because he had been doing it all his life. :grin:

Spence
 
In those cases I note that it takes place in a surprise situation or throwing at a fleeing enemy. There is another thread on about shooting a ball without wad or patch. Not something done regularly but I am sure that more then one case it was tried in an emergent situation.
 
Although I don't have the documentation I do recall reading an account of New York locals (Iroquois) using the tomahawk thrown at the legs of someone they wanted to capture to trip them up.

Live captives provided slaves, ransom, or hours of entertainment. Dead ones were just much less fun.
 
Loyalist Dave said:
Stop doing such a skill and being deadly accurate stops as well.
Maybe so, but they had a good start..."many acquired considerable skill."

It might last....as they say, you never forget how to ride a bicycle. :haha:

Spence
 
George said:
It might last....as they say, you never forget how to ride a bicycle. :haha:
True, but I've seen adults get on a bicycle after decades of not riding and they can barely ride a straight line.

Try not shooting for a number of years, then pick up a gun and see how good you are. :wink:
 
We need a tongue-in-cheek emoticon, Claude. There are people on the board who will take conversations such as this as being serious if they aren't clearly marked. :wink:

Spence
 
It might last....as they say, you never forget how to ride a bicycle.


True, but I've seen adults get on a bicycle after decades of not riding and they can barely ride a straight line.

Claude, we agreed never to speak about my recent foray back into the two-wheeled pastime after a 30 year hiatus!

:haha:

LD
 
George said:
Well, no matter how much 21st-century thinking and supposing we apply to the question, it remains a historic fact that it was done in the day. A little or a lot I don't know, but just in my small database of primary items I've collected a few.

Gen. Samuel Dale 1772-1841, quoted in “The Life and times of Gen. Sam Dale, the Mississippi partisan”, by John Francis Hamtramck Claiborne:
“As the two boats approached, one of them hurled his scalping knife at me. It pierced the boat through and through, just grazing my thigh as it passed.”

_Indian Captivity: A true narrative of the capture of Rev. O. M. Spencer by the Indians, in the neighborhood of Cincinnati_ , in 1792, book printed 1834.
Describing the death of Gen. Butler of St. Clair’s expedition:
“It was during one of these charges, that the brave, but unfortunate Gen. Butler was killed. He had been mortally wounded early in the battle, and carried to his tent; and, determined to sell his life as dearly as possible, was there placed in a reclining posture, with a pair of pistols by his side. In pursuing our troops, retreating in their turn, two warriors at once espied him, and both anxious to plunder his person, as well as to take his scalp, rushed forward; the one only a few feet in advance of the other. The foremost Indian had but just entered his tent, when the general, leveling one pistol, shot him dead; but while in the act of presenting the second, received the stroke of the hurled tomahawk of the other, and instantly expired.”

Rev. Dr. Joseph Doddridge, "Notes on the Settlements and Indian Wars of the Western Parts of Virginia and Pennsylvania from 1763 to 1783"
“The other, being a poor runner, was pursued by an Indian who after a smart chase came close to him. The man then wheeled round and snapped his gun at the Indian. This he repeated several times. The Indian then threw his tomahawk at his head but missed him;”

The South-Carolina GAZETTE
September 13, 1760
CHARLES-TOWN
“At day light Mr. Miln, with the negro Abram, went in pursuit of the deserter as far as Twelve-mile river; but not overtaking him there, returned; and as they were crossing Crow-Creek, which is very near the fort, they were fired at by three Indians, who shot one of Abram's boots through and his horse under him, and as he fell threw a tomahawk which struck him on the back;”

Spencer Records memoir, Pioneer Experiences in Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Ohio and Indiana. 1766-1836
“They then sprung towards the old lady, one of them threw his tomahawk, and stuck it in a tree near her head: she however stuck to her saddle, and her horse soon carried her safe home.”

The Pennsylvania Gazette
June 30, 1757
PHILADELPHIA
“That in the Heighth of the Storm seven Indians killed and scalped one Trump in Allamingle, and left a Knife and Halbert sticking in his Body: That they made his Wife and Son Prisoners; but that the Woman escaped, tho' pursued so very closely by one of the Savages, that throwing his Tomahawk, it struck her in the Neck, and cut her badly, but the Wound is not dangerous; and the Son some Time after also made his Escape, and got safe in to Fort Lebanon, in Berks County.”

A History of the Daniel Boone National Forest, 1770-1970, by the U.S. Prk service:
“When Jemima Boone and the other girls were rescued from the Shawnee, one of them threw his tomahawk at Jemima but missed.”
Spence
Great info Spence and a fun discussion as well. Even though throwing the hawk may not have been common place, its obvious it was thrown as well as knives.
After bringing this question up, I went out and threw my hawk a bit after a long lay off......it was awful! But I did come to the conclusion that even if you threw a hawk poorly and simply hit what you were throwing at, even if it didnt stick, the blunt force trauma from a heavy hawk could have been devistating. One may not kill a foe if a hawk was thrown at them, but Im guessing It would certainly derail his train of thought if he was reloading or slow one down if they were running at, or away from you.
 
FYI Doddrige btw leaves out a step...., when you throw from farther away to end up with the blade stuck in the target with the handle up..., you have to throw the hawk with the edge facing behind you... at the close distance you face the edge toward the target. :wink:

LD
 
Hey guys, you may or may not care but, check u tube on tomahawk fighting. Enlightening ,to say the least.
 
csitas said:
Hey guys, you may or may not care but, check u tube on tomahawk fighting. Enlightening ,to say the least.

Bear in mind that there is no surviving "fightbook"/fencing instructions for 18th century tomahawk fighting, so any modern reconstruction is largely speculative or based off of modern martial arts (probably Escrima, from what I've seen).

Dwight McLemore's (The Fighting Tomahawk) instructions are apparently in part based in part off of original sources, but alas his list of sources, promised in the index of Vol. 2, wasn't actually printed.
 
...,so any modern reconstruction is largely speculative or based off of modern martial arts (probably Escrima...,

Yes there is a lot of Filipino influence that I see as well.

There is a huge anthropological error made in assuming every single human culture had a systematic hand-to-hand combat system, let alone schools of martial arts. While there very well were HTH combat techniques probably passed from father to son, these would fall short of being a martial art. One needs more than the presence of "warriors" to foster a martial art.

LD
 

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