The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Sep 17, 2019 #1521

    Artificer

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    BTW, I hope you will notice I'm not blaming Lincoln for his initial ignorance of transporting slaves to the Caribbean would have the results it did, because former slaves from this country did not have natural immunity to Caribbean diseases. Lincoln should have been informed of that by those who often traveled back and forth to the Caribbean.

    Though that first deportation was voluntary, Lincoln continued to work on the deportation of ALL former slaves for months after that fiasco. There is no way anyone in the period could expect the deportation of all former slaves would ever be voluntary, especially after that fiasco.

    Gus
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  2. Sep 17, 2019 #1522

    Eutycus

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    Sept. 17th, today is the anniversary of the battle of Antietam. ( Sharpsburg). Roughly 100,000 soldiers met near Antietam Creek in Sharpsburg Maryland on this date in 1862. Of the thousands of bloody battles during the Civil War this was the Bloodiest Day of them all. Right at 25,000 men fell this day. This is one of those "Holy Days" to a Civil War follower. I had the privilege of visiting this battlefield years ago. I highly recommend a visit. You will be standing on "Sacred Ground".
     
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  3. Sep 17, 2019 #1523

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    Lincoln never advocated involuntary colonization or deportation.
    Colonization, you might say, was a way of envisioning the end of slavery without confronting the question of America as a biracial society. In other words, you would eliminate the black population, and therefore, you didn't have to think about what their status would be once slavery ended.

    Lincoln said the reason they should leave is white people are so racist that blacks will never be accorded equality in this country. He was right on that IMO, of course, the problem was most black people did not want to leave the United States. They thought of themselves as Americans, and their demand was for equal rights here in the land of their birth. So that was the, you know, the obstacle against which all plans of colonization eventually came up.

    One thing we know for sure is that the Confederacy wanted nothing to do with either colonization of blacks or making them equal and full fledged citizens.
    They only wanted to exploit them as free labor.

    The Idea of colonization would have probably worked and been beneficial to all, had it been done a 100 years or so earlier. By the time the civil war came around there were just too many people and slavery was too entrenched in the South.
     
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  4. Sep 17, 2019 #1524

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    Of course not, and Lincoln didn't start the war either. The south did.
    By his second election though, they definitely affirmed his decisions .
     
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  5. Sep 17, 2019 #1525

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    Perhaps not openly, but when he met with black business men shortly after the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, he asked them for their help to send all blacks back to Africa. Needles to say, that went over like a lead balloon.

    And yet Lincoln continued to work on it far longer than history used to record, as we have learned lately, and only stopped when Congress refused to spend any more money on it.

    Of course even with the Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln refused to free Slaves in some areas controlled by the Union Army, where he had not only the authority, but also the ABILITY to actually free slaves.

    Gus
     
  6. Sep 17, 2019 #1526

    Eutycus

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    Antietam was not the smashing victory that Lincoln had hoped for. Though it should have been. The Army of the Potomac had nearly twice the soldiers that Lee had at his disposal. Lincoln had intended to issue the Emancipation Proclamation following a decisive Victory. But Lincoln would settle for a tie. He then issued a preliminary proclamation several days later. The real one would come the following Jan. It sort of changed the intentions of the war from "save the nation" to "free the slaves". It sent a message to England and France that the war was now about ending Slavery. So it could probably be called a victory in that it kept Foreign Intervention out of the War.
     
  7. Sep 17, 2019 #1527

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    Black business men? :eek:
    Twernt many of those in the south. Near zero I would say.

    Also, thanks for reiterating what I already said about "most black people did not want to leave the United States."

    While Lincoln tried to eliminate slavery by various means, the South wanted to expand it.
    We all know who prevailed
    Lincoln used a 2 prong approach to the problem.
    The south remained singular in their ambitions. They didn't have a chance at succeeding.
     
  8. Sep 17, 2019 #1528

    tenngun

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    After a battle it’s easy to say what should have been done. Looking across ‘the landscape turned red’ launching another assault would be a hard decision to make. It’s easy to see why Mac didn’t. He may have been able to end the war and save lives, but giving the order would have been unbelievably hard.
    Latter Longstreet was unable to voice the command to launch the Pickett/Pettegrew assaults, and after the three days of Gettysburg and the deathtoll there Mead was unable to launch an assault that could have been the end of Lee’s army.
    I’m glad I’ve never been asked to make a decision like that.
     
  9. Sep 17, 2019 #1529

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    I think one fundamental fact about Lincoln keeps eluding you, in that above all else, Lincoln wanted to unite the country. Slavery and racism were divisive issues.
    While war and emancipation took "the long way round the barn", Lincoln also envisioned a shorter path through the barn.
     
  10. Sep 17, 2019 #1530

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    I'd call that a huge strategic move.
    With the stoke of a pen he created a virtual "blockade" denying the South the help it desperately needed.
     
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  11. Sep 17, 2019 #1531

    arcticap

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    It was interesting to learn another way that the south shot itself in the foot when it seceded from the Union.

    Had the south not seceded......"The Republicans would have controlled neither House of Congress.

    During the 37th Congress (1861-1863), there were only 108 Republican members in the House of Representatives, plus three Northern Unionists who could probably have been counted on to support Republican measures. Had the South sent its full complement of Representatives, there would have been a total of 128 Democrats and Southerners.

    The Republican Party would have been even weaker in the Senate, where only 30 of 70 slots were filled by Republicans. Only the absence of 21 Southern senators allowed Linocln’s party to control the upper chamber.

    Secession was clearly a miscalculation by those who sought to preserve the institution of slavery...." ---->>> https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2013/09/could-lincoln-have-been-defeated-in-1860/

    This means that Lincoln may not have been able to enact his agenda.
    And the make up of the US Supreme Court and some subsequent court decisions may have also been affected.
     
  12. Sep 17, 2019 #1532

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    I think the word "miscalculation" gravely understates the gravity of the decision.
    It was plum loco.
     
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  13. Sep 18, 2019 #1533

    tenngun

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    Most times people in charge underestimate what will happen if war breaks out.
    The UK thought the rebellion would give up at the sight of the army in red crossing the field. The US thought Canada would fall in its lap with little effort... twice. Santa Anna thought his well disciplined troops would walk right over the Texicans as easily as the peons of Mexico, later he thought the smaller American armies would fall apart with little effort.
    I think listing a dozen examples from history wouldn’t take any digging.
     
  14. Sep 18, 2019 #1534

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    Focus Tenn, we're only discussing the American Civil War.
    But I agree, No war is fully thought out. If that's what you're saying.
     
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  15. Sep 19, 2019 #1535

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    The meeting with the Black Business men was in Washington, DC. I think it was in the White House, though I'm not entirely sure about that.

    YES, we AGREE most Blacks did not want to leave the country, but Lincoln continued to work on sending them overseas until Congress finally stopped funding for it.

    Gus
     
  16. Sep 19, 2019 #1536

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    Not overseas, He wanted to send volunteers to South or Central America.
    Then things got complicated, With crooked business men, and treaties etc.
    Eventually Blacks colonized Vache Island. We know how that ended, with ex-slaves being brought back to the U.S.
    That prompted Morton S. Wilkinson of Minnesota to introduce a bill in the Senate on March 15, 1864, withdrawing all funds for colonization. Congress passed the measure on July 2, and Lincoln signed it. Of the $600,000 appropriated by Congress for colonization, the Lincoln administration had spent only about $38,000.
    Colonization was then deemed neither practical or profitable.

    Trying to make it look like Lincoln wanted to forcibly send all slaves out of the country is a narrative that doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny. Though there were politicians in border states that did.
     
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  17. Sep 19, 2019 #1537

    tenngun

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    Black business men were rare as hens teeth in much of the south. Louisiana, west Mississippi south Arkansas and up the Arkansas River you would find some, especially in Louisiana you would find a few plantation and slave owners. La Tigers were long on Black ancestry.
     
  18. Sep 19, 2019 #1538

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    tenngun

    A reference needs to have a relevant point. Relevant to the train of thought. A dozen examples just obscure both the train of thought and their relevance, as each one is unique unto it'self.

    If one example cannot make your argument, then your argument is likely in fault.
     
  19. Sep 19, 2019 #1539

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    Thank you for understanding what I wrote. That was the bulk of my point.
     
  20. Sep 19, 2019 #1540

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    Not aware of any "Black ancestry" in that unit, I
    thought they were mostly Irish. Either way, they weren't business men.
     

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