The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Sep 16, 2019 #1501

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

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    What have you heard ?
    (please state your answer in the form of a question.) :D
     
  2. Sep 16, 2019 #1502

    Eutycus

    Eutycus

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    True enough but I was referring to the Southeners "in the crowd" that you brought up earlier.
     
  3. Sep 16, 2019 #1503

    Carbon 6

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    Lincoln was a very perceptive man, "forward thinking", He was not a clairvoyant. He could not know how many would be in the audience and it didn't matter he knew they would all hear his words eventually. He spoke to everyone. (no I don't mean that literally) after all he wanted to be president that fall.
     
  4. Sep 16, 2019 #1504

    Eutycus

    Eutycus

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    Why so you can answer my question with another question?
     
  5. Sep 16, 2019 #1505

    Carbon 6

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    Would you like me to do that?:D

    Seriously though, When you run out of questions you often find yourself at the answer. Don't you ? :D
     
  6. Sep 16, 2019 #1506

    Eutycus

    Eutycus

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  7. Sep 16, 2019 #1507

    Carbon 6

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    Isn't everything a question ?

    What do you think of this Lincoln quote?
    "Happy day, when, all appetites controlled, all poisons subdued, all matter subjected, mind, all conquering mind, shall live and move the monarch of the world. Glorious consummation! Hail fall of Fury! Reign of Reason, all hail!"
     
  8. Sep 16, 2019 #1508

    Eutycus

    Eutycus

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    Are you sure that's a Lincoln Quote? He usually makes more sense that that.
     
  9. Sep 16, 2019 #1509

    Carbon 6

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    Oh yes, it makes perfect sense. It is from his February 22, 1842 Temperance Address.
     
  10. Sep 17, 2019 #1510

    arcticap

    arcticap

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    I thought that Lincoln's Hartford speech was enlightening.
    It rallied political support for him and his cause.
    I'm guessing that most people understood that they were voting for war, and that it would cost them business, money and some of their sons.
    On the other hand there were industrialists such as Sam Colt who tried to coerce his workers to vote Democrat so they could continue to sell goods to the south.
    But whether people knew that war was coming or not, northern states like Connecticut were going to eventually profit by making goods for the war effort.
    For instance, The Hazard Powder Co. was located in CT which was one of three main gov't. sources of gun powder, producing 12,500 lbs. of it per day.
    There was money to be made on both sides if there was going to be a civil war.
    Profit must have been a powerful motive for some in both the north and the south to vote for war.
    I doubt that Lincoln dazzled them with his good looks and physical appearance. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  11. Sep 17, 2019 #1511

    Carbon 6

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    He had quite the political career.

    MARCH 9, 1832
    Makes first-known published political announcement
    AUGUST 6, 1832
    Loses first race for Illinois House of Representatives
    AUGUST 4, 1834
    Wins election to first term in Illinois House of Representatives
    AUGUST 1, 1836
    Wins election to second term in Illinois House of Representatives
    JANUARY 11, 1837
    Gives first published speech in Illinois legislature
    MARCH 3, 1837
    Makes first public declaration against slavery
    JANUARY 27, 1838
    Delivers speech on "Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions"
    AUGUST 6, 1838
    Wins election to third term in the Illinois House of Representatives
    DECEMBER 3, 1838
    Loses bid for Speaker of the Illinois House of Representatives
    OCTOBER 7, 1839
    Attends first Whig Party state convention
    AUGUST 3, 1840
    Wins election to fourth term in the Illinois House of Representatives
    MAY 1, 1843
    Attends Whig Party district convention in Pekin, Illinois
    OCTOBER 25 - NOVEMBER 6, 1844
    Speaks in Illinois and Indiana on behalf of Henry Clay
    MAY 1, 1846
    Wins Whig Party nomination for Seventh Congressional District
    AUGUST 3, 1846
    Wins election to Congress as Whig Party representative
    DECEMBER 6, 1847
    Takes seat in U.S. House of Representatives
    DECEMBER 22, 1847
    Presents "Spot Resolutions" in U.S. House of Representatives
    JUNE 7 - 9, 1848
    Attends national Whig Party convention in Philadelphia
    SEPTEMBER 9 - OCTOBER 9, 1848
    Speaks on behalf of Zachery Taylor in New England
    JANUARY 10, 1849
    Proposes amendment to abolish slavery in District of Columbia
    MARCH 4, 1849
    Ends first and only term in U.S. House of Representatives
    OCTOBER 16, 1854
    Delivers famous anti-Nebraska Act speech in Peoria, Illinois
    NOVEMBER 7, 1854
    Wins election to Illinois House of Representatives
    NOVEMBER 10, 1854
    Decides to run for U.S. Senate instead
    DECEMBER 23, 1854
    Special election held to choose his successor to Illinois legislature
    FEBRUARY 8, 1855
    Loses bid for Senate when Illinois legislature elects Lyman Trumbull
    MAY 29, 1856
    Delivers stirring "lost speech" as a Republican in Bloomington, Illinois
    JUNE 19, 1856
    Considered for vice president at first Republican National Convention
    JUNE 26, 1857
    Speaks against Dred Scott court decision in Springfield, Illinois
    JUNE 16, 1858
    Chosen as U.S. Senate candidate by Illinois Republican Convention
    AUGUST 21, 1858
    Begins first of seven formal debates with Democrat Stephen A. Douglas
    NOVEMBER 2, 1858
    Wins Senate popular vote but loses election to Douglas
    SEPTEMBER 16 - OCTOBER 5, 1859
    Makes speaking tour of Ohio, Indiana, and Wisconsin
    NOVEMBER 30 - DECEMBER 6, 1859
    Makes speaking tour of northeastern Kansas
    FEBRUARY 27, 1860
    Gives famous Cooper Union speech in New York City
    FEBRUARY 28 - MARCH 10, 1860
    Makes speaking tour of New England states
    MAY 9 - 10, 1860
    Receives support of Illinois Republican Convention for president
    MAY 18, 1860
    Receives Republican nomination for president with running mate Hannibal Hamlin
    NOVEMBER 6, 1860
    Wins election as first Republican president in a four-way race
    MARCH 4, 1861
    Takes oath of office as sixteenth president of the U.S.
    FEBRUARY 22, 1864
    Endorsed for re-election by the Republican National Committee
    JUNE 8, 1864
    Renominated for president by National Union Party with running mate Andrew Johnson
    NOVEMBER 8, 1864
    Wins re-election as president, defeating Democrat George McClellan
    MARCH 4, 1865
    Takes oath of office as president for a second term
    APRIL 15, 1865
    Dies an assassination victim at 7:22 a.m., ending presidential term
     
  12. Sep 17, 2019 #1512

    Carbon 6

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    That seems like a frightening amount.:eek:
     
  13. Sep 17, 2019 #1513

    Zonie

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    Arcticap:

    I don't think most of the Republicans who voted for Lincoln thought their vote was "voting for war".

    There's no way to prove it, but I believe that most of the Northern Republicans strongly suspected the South would try to succeed from the Union if Lincoln was elected, but most of them also thought, "So, let them go. I don't have a problem with them leaving."
    They didn't realize that Lincoln and his advisers would actually start a all out, total war against the South.

    I say this because in my opinion, no rational people would knowingly vote to go to war over an issue that didn't concern them or their families directly.
     
  14. Sep 17, 2019 #1514

    Eutycus

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    Until you mentioned Temperance , the quote made no sense to me. And still don't make a whole lot. Maybe you could explain it a little.
     
  15. Sep 17, 2019 #1515

    Carbon 6

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    Ponder on it, then PM me.
     
  16. Sep 17, 2019 #1516

    Eutycus

    Eutycus

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    7 commas in one sentence? I'm no English Major but that don't sound right.
     
  17. Sep 17, 2019 #1517

    Carbon 6

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    Well, he is listing things.
     
  18. Sep 17, 2019 #1518

    Artificer

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    Excuses, excuses, excuses...….

    There is a phrase that is often quoted in slightly different ways, but generally it states, "Character is what one does when no one is watching...."

    In Lincoln's case, this applies to his continuing to work on deportation of slaves right up to the time funds were finally refused by the U.S. Congress, in the last year of the war.

    But Lincoln's character was right out in the open when he REFUSED to free Slaves in places he was fully authorized to do so as Commander in Chief, with the Emancipation Proclamation.

    It is understandable Lincoln did not feel he was authorized to free all the Slaves in Northern Slave States at the time of the Emancipation Proclamation, as that would have defied the U.S. Constitution. But we are not discussing what he had no legal power to do...…..

    We are not even discussing Lincoln's part in the Constitutionally Illegal scheme of making a new State out of the clearly defined borders of another State, that itself was bordered on all sides by States in the Union.

    The discussion here is Lincoln had the Authority to Free ALL THE SLAVES in the States in Rebellion, but he CHOSE not to do so.

    His hypocrisy is a matter of historic fact and all the excuses in the world will not change that fact.

    Gus
     
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  19. Sep 17, 2019 #1519

    Carbon 6

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    Deported slaves?
    Heck, he had slaves that were sent to San Domingo that wanted to return brought back to Washington. Gave them jobs and provided for them.
    What you talking bout, "Deported slaves"?

    P.S. you also left out the the word "Voluntary" regarding deportation.

    " During December 1862, Lincoln had approved a 20 year contract between Bernard Kock and the United States to set up a colony consisting of 5000 ex-slaves and free Blacks on the Ile a Vache, a 25 sq. mile island also known as Cow Island, near the coast of Haiti, which Kock had claimed was leased from the Haitian govenment. At the beginning of 1863, 453 Blacks were settled at the colony but by the end of the year Lincoln learned that they had been abandoned without support and that nearly 100 had died from disease. On February 8, 1864 Lincoln ordered the United States Navy to bring back to the U S any of the Black colonists who wished to return:"

    CONFIDENTIAL. I WAR DEPARTMENT,
    Washington City, February 8, 1864.
    Brig. Gen. M. C. MEIGS, Quartermaster- General:
    GENERAL: The following order has been made by the President:
    Hon. EDWIN M. STANTON, Secretary of War:

    SIR: You are directed to have a transport (either a steamer or sailing vessel as may be deemed proper by the Quartermaster-General) sent to the colored colony established by the United States at the island of Vache, on the coast of San Domingo, to bring back to this country such of the colonists there as desire to return. You will have the transport furnished with suitable supplies for that purpose, and detail an officer of the Quartermaster's Department who, under special instructions to be given, shall have charge of the business. The colonists will be brought to Washington, unless otherwise hereafter directed, and be employed and provided for at the camps for colored persons around that city. Those only will be brought from the island who desire to return, and their effects will be brought with them.
    ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
    O.R. Series III, Vol. IV, pg. 75

    All 368 surviving colonists returned to the U S on the Navy ship.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  20. Sep 17, 2019 #1520

    arcticap

    arcticap

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    You may be right Zonie that my statement represents a leap of logic for many people who voted, but probably not for all people who did.
    It would require more investigation, but it's clear that Lincoln did not appear on southern ballots in 1860 because he represented their most severe threat, that he was a member of the Free Soil Party before it became the Republican Party, and had argued against the expansion of slavery at that earlier time.

    His stump speech did not mention war, but also did not mention letting the south walk away either.
    The historical threats that southern state had previously made regarding secession would seem to logically point to Lincoln's election signifying that a "boiling point" had been reached.
    An impass that Lincoln described as necessitating a national convulsion.
    He clearly warned in his speech that slavery and its expansion was a long standing dvisive issue that needed to be resolved, and that it was the only single issue dividing the country.
    In those days people read the newspapers which one would think would have reported the political risks associated with electing Lincoln.
    The whole country must have known or deduced that the great divide had been reached and that come hell or high water, that if they were going to vote for Lincoln because it was the moral and just thing to do that a conflict of some sort would result.
    I can't imagine that any POTUS or the majority of states would simply let the south walk with the amount of Federal and private investment in the south at stake.
    Even the amount of tax revenues, Federal mints, arsenals, forts and properties in the south, and the bloodshed over a free Kansas would allow people to be ignorant or naive about the course of events that were about to happen, which was southern secession very soon after the election.
    I'm not a professional historian but my gut feeling is that some people must have been in the know about what laid ahead.
    Even if it were only the higher political operatives and party leaders in each state.
    That doesn't prove that the masses of voters did or didn't know whether there would be war or not.
    But why would Sam Colt pressure his workers to vote Democrat if it didn't mean that arms sales to the south would soon be banned?
    And what would that reason be?
    Colt must have known that it meant war.
    If he did then others must have also been able to use their logic to understand why Lincoln wasn't on southern ballots.
    If some southerners felt that Lincoln's election may lead to war then some northerners may have also felt the same way.
    Strategy, planning & preparations for war on both sides must not have simply happened overnight.
    One would think that at least some educated people would have read the proverbial writing on the wall.
    I'll admit that this is speculation, but it may be worthy of further investigation if someone felt so inclined to dig into it using historical sources.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
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