The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Aug 20, 2019 #841

    Carbon 6

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    Well the South was plum nuts then, If they wanted to leave the union peaceably bombing the crap out of a Govt fort for a day and a half straight was poor way to do it.
    Sounds like a great way to pick a fight though.
     
  2. Aug 20, 2019 #842

    Carbon 6

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    Societies are built upon social constructs, and our society was built upon "All men are created equal". It's right in out Declaration of Independence.
     
  3. Aug 20, 2019 #843

    tenngun

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    Well what if’s and should haves are handy. The best bet would have been a quick drive in to Washington before there was a federal army. grab the government and get a treaty of San Jacinto.
     
  4. Aug 20, 2019 #844

    Carbon 6

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    It is if you use the simplest of criteria.
    However, if you convolute it, then any set of criteria can be assigned to make something not equal.
    I can give you an example if you like. I could argue that the black man is and was far superior to the white man.
    That would be an easy argument to demonstrate.
     
  5. Aug 20, 2019 #845

    tenngun

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    That’s true but, what does that mean. Remember the western world held that non Europeans peoples were naturally superior to all others.
    Your child should be your equal but is not capable of life on its own.
    Adults with mental handicaps or mental disorder or traumatic brain injury may be unable to function on their own in society. Are they still equal?
    If it’s a ‘natural fact’ that a group of people could not operate freely for their own good and the good of that society, should they be free on their own?
     
  6. Aug 20, 2019 #846

    Carbon 6

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    As you said.

    "Well what if’s and should haves are handy"
     
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  7. Aug 20, 2019 #847

    Straekat

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    There were, give or take, roughly four million black slaves in the south in 1860. How many of them would you guess were in favor of immediate emancipation and abolition of slavery, or believed they should be entitled to the same political, social and economic rights as white? That figure could be very large.

    Slavery was possible if there was a willingness to believe the enslaved was inferior to you, that you made money from the situation, and your local minister said it was acceptable to own slaves. The Methodist Church split in the second quarter over the matter of slavery, because northern congregations were supportive of the Quakers position on abolition, while southern Methodist ministers tended to support the importance of slavery to the south.

    Refusal to see an "other" as human, despite evidence to the contrary, can have an effect of a persons willingness to do things. There is an antidote of the war, when two opposing forces were in sight of each other. A group of northerners were playing Abner Doubleday's new sport of baseball (so the story goes), and southerners setting on a hill could see them. After a while, one of them turned to his pard and as the rest of the story has it said...."you know, they seem just like us." It's hard to kill or oppress someone who you start to think is like yourself, or....your equal. Keeping slaves requires a willingness to recognize the humanity in others. If southern slave owners had, they might have allowed blacks to marry each other, not to split up and separate families, and similar practices.

    Slavery had to be rationalized away in order to allow it to continue.

    In the transcripts of period speeches by politicians, newspaper editorials, secession convention delegates, and other sources, slavery is constantly mentioned, so it the fear that abolition would result in equal rights for blacks, and fears equality could result in mixing of the races and daughters being involved with blacks.
     
  8. Aug 20, 2019 #848

    Carbon 6

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    Study American history, You'll learn what that means.
     
  9. Aug 20, 2019 #849

    Carbon 6

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    Who, and what are you talking about?
    Are you describing criminals?
     
  10. Aug 20, 2019 #850

    tenngun

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    Using criteria. Exactly.
    I can tell you how far it is to the moon, well the best we can get is how far it was a second and a half ago. I can tell you what your mass is,even though it changes through the course of a day. I can tell you how far it is from my town to Boston or what happens if you pour vinegar on baking soda. But I can’t tell you what it means to be equal as far as races are concerned. I can’t tell you what it means to be one race and not another, I can’t tell you what could make A person superior to Another.
    As absurd as it sounds today, holding and treating Blacks as inferior did not violate them being equal.
    My dad lived to be 93. He had views we would describe as misogynistic today. But he wasn’t a misogynist, he was a man of His time.
     
  11. Aug 20, 2019 #851

    Straekat

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    Yup.

    I guess the Davis administration didn't think about discussions with France and Britain in an attempt to have potential allies before the brown stuff hit the rotary oscillator. That's a what-if, however, things could have gone very differently if they made allies, did nothing and waited to see what the incoming Lincoln administration would do.

    (Mostly my opinion) Firing on Sumter wasn't a symbolic target, it was flat out stupid, and for anyone realizing there could be a war as a result, there had to be an awareness it wasn't symbolic. Jefferson Davis was aware of this, and in letters at the time strongly favored waiting for the administration in DC to fire the first shots in order to avoid being seen as the side that started a war.

    Suggesting Sumter was "symbolic" suggests the Davis administration wanted a war, and was thinking how to start a war and any "symbolic target" might do.
     
  12. Aug 20, 2019 #852

    tenngun

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    No I was describing blacks as seen by the western world in 1850. People who were thought mentally inferior.
     
  13. Aug 20, 2019 #853

    Carbon 6

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    Yep! They could have also marched their troops straight into Washington as Tengunn suggested and then called it a "protest march".

    upload_2019-8-20_10-12-39.jpeg
     
  14. Aug 20, 2019 #854

    Carbon 6

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    History show that was not the general consensus. History also shows us that great steps were taken to make that assertion true.


    With the exception of Maryland and Kentucky, every Southern state absolutely prohibited the education of slaves.

    Between 1829 and 1834 Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, North and South Carolina and Virginia all passed anti-literacy laws. South Carolina prohibited teaching slaves to read and write, punishable by a fine of 100 pounds and six months in prison, via an amendment to its 1739 Negro Act.

    • 1819, Missouri: Prohibited assembling or teaching slaves to read or write
    • 1829, Georgia: Prohibited teaching blacks to read, punished by fine and imprisonment
    • 1832, Alabama and Virginia: Prohibited whites from teaching blacks to read or write, punished by fines and floggings
    • 1833, Georgia: Prohibited blacks from working in reading or writing jobs (via an employment law), and prohibited teaching blacks, punished by fines and whippings (via an anti-literacy law)
    • 1847, Missouri: Prohibited teaching blacks to read or write
     
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  15. Aug 20, 2019 #855

    tenngun

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    Ask the crew of Little Belt.
    Now the US and UK would go to war, but not over the Little Belt. Or any of the violation of American sovereignty at sea that proceeded the Little Belt incident.
    History taught that a New Country that was challenged by the old county had to make a bold move BEFORE they went looking for allies.
    The mistake made by Jefferson was not understanding new technology. The south of 1840 would have been in a better place then the south of 1860.
    Telegraphs Trains and steam ships wrought changes on par with the A-bomb. No longer could war be fought as it had.
     
  16. Aug 20, 2019 #856

    tenngun

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    And why is that?
    They knew Blacks could be taught to read but how could they process the info. Today we limit information to children based on age appropriateness. Through our history governments and religious institutions have limited access to information that may prove troubling.
    Rome had thought it could teach the children of defeated kings and turn them in to little Romans. What it got was rebellious new kings who knew Roman organization and army building.
    Lou Tzu taught ‘to have contentment keep their bellies full and minds empty.’ I doubt any southerner read Tzu but all knew the proverb
     
  17. Aug 20, 2019 #857

    Straekat

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    Bold move before getting allies? Really? Bismarck built up a coaltion of states in the 1860's with the eventual idea of German unification as part of his planning, goaded the French into declaring war against Prussia and then used the coalition of sometimes adversaries to invade France, and establish Germany as a nation.

    You think other countries didn't try building alliances before getting into a war? History teaches more than one lesson, and there are examples of countries that depended on alliances before stuff hit the fan.

    The comments about technology? I wasn't talking about the technological changes used in warfare. The non-tangible aspect of how a country conducts war and international relations can change, but not on the same scale or as fast as the technological aspects do.
     
  18. Aug 20, 2019 #858

    rshveyda

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    I guess the supreme court disagrees with you. And the south lost a war trying to make it so. So...
     
  19. Aug 20, 2019 #859

    rshveyda

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    Again, this is what the south felt, but the supreme court has said no to. And the south lost a war trying to make it so. So...
     
  20. Aug 20, 2019 #860

    rshveyda

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    Agreed. The only reason I got drawn in to this "debate" is because I reject the idea that the north picked on the south by stopping it from seceding from the union. Anyone saying the south was an innocent victim is being disingenuous at best.

    And anyone trying to justify or defend the south's continued demand for slavery because they north hadn't completely kicked the reprehensible habit is doing a disservice to his fellow man. Slavery may have been very, very common in most parts of the world at one time or another, but we have reached an era enlightened enough to know it was an evil practice. But very much like rebellion, independence, secession and war in general, if you are on the winning side, or not a slave, you get to make the rules.
     

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