The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Aug 18, 2019 #741

    Artificer

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    The Thomas Watson originally was a New York Slaver before being sold and used as a Confederate Blockade runner.

    The Watson's last slave voyage began in 1860 from New York, though they sold their slaves in the Yucatan.

    Gus
     
  2. Aug 18, 2019 #742

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    Gus there's one thing I think you overlooked with your ships claim.
    That is, that the numbers of northern ships are likely circumstantial due to Boston being the largest shipyard of the time. The likelihood of ships coming from elsewhere would be inconsequential. Origin does not denote intent, and slave ships were illegal.
    Moreover. The North and other nations captured thousands of slave ships. Including northern ships.
    How many did the south capture? None that I can find.
     
  3. Aug 18, 2019 #743

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    Wow, just to start, you do realize there were three major political parties (not just two) in the 1850's including the WHIG Party the U.S. President from New York came from when they passed the anti slavery laws that did not stop the sale of slaves in DC?

    As I earlier mentioned, the sale of slaves went on because of a loop hole and further already mentioned almost no law is without loop holes when first enacted. However, they had another 2-3 years to close the loop hole while a New York Whig was President and they failed to do so.

    OF COURSE there was Northern opposition to such laws, which is part of my point, that there was no overwhelming feelings/beliefs to end slavery even in DC where they could have done it.

    Gus
     
  4. Aug 18, 2019 #744

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    It wasn't just the fact most intercontinental ships were built in the North, it was the fact so many slavers were owned, captained and crewed from the North and especially from New York.

    Good Grief, the U.S. Navy was still having to patrol New York for Slavers coming out of that port in the 1850's and only reduced the number in the early 1860's BECAUSE of the UnCivil War.

    Gus
     
  5. Aug 18, 2019 #745

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    Add to that, blah, blah, blah, and by the way of distracting everyone's attention, let's shift to blaming the north for "both siderisms" that completely ignore that there are degrees of guilt.

    Northern involvement in the slavery issue took place in the early days of the Republic, and as the 19th century went on, the north turned against slavery, while southern states did everything they could to perpetuate it. Despite your contentions that slavery in the US might have been on the way out, there is no evidence southerners thought otherwise. Or...that it would have happened. Suggesting it was going to, is nothing by conjecture.

    I didn't bring up the number of parties in the US during the 19th century as it wasn't and isn't relevant, because NO party had enough control to prevent a Senate filibuster aimed at stopping any legislation.

    Congressional members can and do introduce legislation they know isn't going to pass, and do it for symbolic and/or political reasons. I can't say whether or not anyone in either chamber introduced a bill that never made it out of committee, can you? Instead of saying northerners didn't care, one possibility is some people may not have bothered with symbolic gestures that had as much chance of making it through the legislative process as there is of getting died in the wool pro-southerners from changing their mind.
     
  6. Aug 18, 2019 #746

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    Your rant not withstanding, you have helped make the case there was not enough will in the North to even stop slavery where they had the Deck stacked in DC in the 1850's. Thank you.

    Gus
     
  7. Aug 18, 2019 #747

    Eutycus

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    I like Historical Tidbits. I can only think of three attempts. Fort Stevens, When he went riding and caught a bullet through his Top Hat, and Ford'sTheater. Could you list the other 2 please.
     
  8. Aug 18, 2019 #748

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    This one from the Abolition Project:

    By the end of the 1840s the health and effectiveness of the squadron was improving and in 1850 the Brazilian Chamber of Deputies announced that an earlier treaty with Britain would be enforced. The Brazilian trade rapidly collapsed. The Cuban trade still continued, mainly using American ships; but after Abraham Lincoln became President in 1860, he prevented slave ships being built or fitted out in the northern States. Then in April 1862, the 'Treaty of Washington' between America and Britain finally allowed vessels carrying slavery equipment to be siezed along with a mutual right of search."

    http://abolition.e2bn.org/slavery_155.html

    Gus
     
  9. Aug 18, 2019 #749

    Eutycus

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    Actually the incident at Fort Stevens wasn't really an attempt on his life. Lincoln just happened to be in the line of fire. So I can only think of 2 attempts on his life.
     
  10. Aug 18, 2019 #750

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    Lincoln as Commander in Chief, was a legitimate target on the battlefield/s during the UnCivil War.

    However, the Cowardly Terrorist Assassination of Lincoln by Booth when the War was over, goes down into Infamy Forever.

    Gus
     
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  11. Aug 18, 2019 #751

    Eutycus

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    True He would have been a legitimate target, but from what I read the Confederate Soldiers didn't even know Lincoln was at Fort Stevens. He just happened to be there when they showed up and started shooting. Had the Southern Soldiers known I am sure alot heavier gunfire and better aim would have been directed at "the guy in the top hat".
     
  12. Aug 18, 2019 #752

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    Confederate Soldiers might not have been SURE it was Lincoln at Fort Stevens, but their firing increased remarkably when a very tall man in black with a stove pipe hat appeared above the Fort's parapets and that is well documented.

    Gus
     
  13. Aug 18, 2019 #753

    tenngun

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    I’m thinking there were two times that a bullet passed near him while riding outside of DC that he blamed on a hunter who didn’t know how to ID game.
     
  14. Aug 18, 2019 #754

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    Okay I'll give you the Fort Stevens incident though he was still an unidentified target. And 2 "while riding" shootings. Then Fords Theater. That still don't make 5 attempts. There's still a unaccounted event somewhere.
     
  15. Aug 18, 2019 #755

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    Gus, your own rants not withstanding you make assertions despite providing feew or no facts, and some of the "facts" you do present (the slaverynorth is a prime example) turn out to be wrong. Think again. You still haven't come up with facts, and constantly make assertions that might sound good but aren't all they are cracked up to be.

    Instead of on-line sources, how about Published Sources by qualified academics and professional historians with real training in history. I trust those more than your "slaverynorth" stuff.

    Will? There's also knowing attempting something that's entirely meaningless and isn't going to work even before it's started, and then still doing it is more than stupid.
     
  16. Aug 18, 2019 #756

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    If one doesn’t like the facts one can always look away. My dogs do that. I say ‘outside’ they turn their heads and pretend not to hear me
     
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  17. Aug 18, 2019 #757

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    Five was a new one for me I had heard of the other three and Fords.
     
  18. Aug 18, 2019 #758

    Carbon 6

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    Everybody was fighting slave ships except the south.
     
  19. Aug 18, 2019 #759

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    I'd say the North had a a ton of will whereas the south none. They outlawed the Atlantic trade in 08 and then outlawed slavery in the 60's.

    Where was the south and their will ?
     
  20. Aug 18, 2019 #760

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    #1
    In 1864, 9 months before he was fatally shot by John Wilkes Booth, he was riding to the Old Soldier’s Home outside of Washington DC, alone. A gun shot rang out, and his horse spooked. President Lincoln arrived, without his hat, at the old Soldier’s Home. The following day, two soldiers went looking for the hat, and discovered it on the path, with a musketball hole through the side.
    President Lincoln, for his part, dismissed the incident as a likely hunting accident. He told the soldiers that rumors of an assassination plot would be more dangerous to the Union’s cause than silence. Later, he shared the story as s Sleepy Hollow-esque anecdote among friends.

    “I can’t bring myself to believe that any one has shot at me or will deliberately shoot at me with the deliberate purpose of killing me.” – Abraham Lincoln


    #2

    What later became known as the Baltimore plot and the Pinkerton plot was actually prevented largely as a result of the efforts of railroad magnate Samuel Morse Felton. In the North, President Lincoln was popular, but the South was already nervous before his inauguration. As Lincoln and his wife Mary planned their journey to Washington, D.C. by rail and without a military escort, Felton heard rumors of an assassination plan that would include the capture of railroads leading to Washington, D.C. and the seizure of the Capitol.

    Felton called in professional help – the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. Allan Pinkerton was shocked by what Felton told him, but took the plot seriously and set about preventing it.

    Pinkerton hired Harry Davies, a young man who had grown up in New Orleans and had the uncanny ability to adapt himself to any situation, pick up new languages quickly, and blend in almost anywhere. The pair began their investigation in Baltimore, at that point, a slaveholding city with a strong secessionist political atmosphere.

    Meanwhile, Lincoln planned an open arrival to D.C., with frequent stops along the route where he would meet the public. He also continued to receive death threats ranging from the expected (knife, gunshot, physical assault) to the highly unusual (spider-filled dumpling, poisoned ink) variety.

    By February 17, 1861, both Pinkerton and Davies had encountered members of a plot to kill Lincoln. They had originally assumed that the danger was to the rail line, but now it became clear – the real threat was to the President-elect. The man behind the plot was the barber at Burnam’s hotel in Baltimore, a Sicilian immigrant by the name of Ferrandini.

    Pinkerton sent word to one Sen. Judd, a member of Lincoln’s traveling “suite” and an associate of Pinkerton’s. Sen. Judd believed that Lincoln would not agree to a change in travel plans, and he was largely correct. Eventually, the pair was able to convince the President-elect to disguise himself and skip the Baltimore leg of the trip – a feat which required the help of a Governor, a female detective, a private train, Lincoln’s personal guard, and Pinkerton himself. On the morning of February 23, 1861, Lincoln’s train arrived as scheduled without Lincoln or his wife on it. They had passed through in the middle of the night. According to Pinkerton, a mob was to attack the President-elect with knives.
    “Plums delivered nuts safely.” – Pinkerton’s telegraph that the President was safe.

    #3
    Sometimes desire outpaces sanity. In a bid to win the war and kill off Lincoln, country doctor Luke Pryor Blackburn amassed a large quantity of clothing that belonged to victims of yellow fever. Although we now know that the disease is spread by mosquitoes, at that point the medical establishment believed that yellow fever was infectious and spread quickly from person to person.

    Blackburn’s plan involved selling the ‘infected’ clothing through used-clothing retailers near Union army depots and stations, in the hopes of killing off large numbers of Union soldiers and terrifying the general population. But Blackburn’s plan didn’t stop there. He also had a special valise of ‘elegant’ shirts to be delivered to Lincoln, and asked Godfrey J. Hymes, his assistant, to ensure that Lincoln received the shirts. Hymes refused, and the plot was foiled – not like it would have worked, anyhow. Blackburn is indicted, but has the charges dropped. He denied the allegations. Luke Blackburn later becomes the governor of Kentucky. If the story is true, it would be one of the earliest incidences of biological warfare.

    #4

    On July 2, 1864, an officer standing next to President Lincoln was shot in the leg. He was visiting Fort Stevens, located outside of Washington, D.C., at the time. This was the closest that an American President has ever come to being shot in battle while in office. It’s likely that Confederate sharpshooting snipers were responsible, shooting from up to 1000 yards away with the help of a gun such as the Whitworth Sniper Rifle.

    #5

    Less than a week before John Wilkes Booth took President Lincoln’s life, another assassination attempt failed. Sgt. Thomas Haney of the Confederate Torpedo Bureau was an explosives expert with a mission. He had been ordered to enter the White House and blow up the dining room floor while Lincoln was eating, producing lots of shrapnel and causing the room to collapse. En route to complete his task, Haney was arrested by an Illinois cavalry unit that came across them by chance. The South was distressed, and the North was safe for a few more days, until John Wilkes Booth succeeded in his attempt.
     
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