The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Aug 13, 2019 #461

    tenngun

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    Few people made more then five hundred dollars a year, a top man in labor like a train engineer could earn up to four dollars a day about thirteen hundred dollars a year, this was some top wages. So my math was based on average wages. Today average wages are in the forty to fifty thousand dollar range, higher then average for skilled Workman.
    Unfortunately we can’t do a one to one a dollar in 1860 was worth so many dollars today. Land was cheaper some commodities were higher.
    Your figure of nine hundred dollars would be any where from nine months for a skilled labor man to almost two years for low skilled or unskilled labor.
     
  2. Aug 13, 2019 #462

    tenngun

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    The slaves were
    1) seen as mentally backwards and child like, very few in the world thought that they could integrate in to society as anything more then a second class citizen. Even the most respected scientist thought blacks could never be intellectually equal to whites. Well up until the nineteen fifties you would not have to look hard to find an anthropologist or psychologist that thought Blacks were backwards. The purpose of Kipling’s white mans Burden was to encourage the US to go forth and help the backwards uncivilized people of the world. Woodrow Wilson would, fifty years after the war contemplate a slow Genocide of ‘inferior’ races
    2) they had been a legal purchased via a trade that existed long before the United States or English colonies had existed. They were recognized as Real Property and represented wealth. And were, according to SCOTUS incapable of being citizens, and the owner had the right to chase them down even in free states and recruit the local law enforcement agency to aid
     
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  3. Aug 13, 2019 #463

    Artificer

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    Though of course we find this deplorable today, these things were the ways most people thought in both the North and the South before, during and after the UnCivil War. Even the most arguably "progressive" people in the Abolitionist Movement were almost equally split right down the middle on whether or not all Slaves should be freed and sent back to Africa, because even they did not believe Slaves were the equal of other races or ever could live in this country as free people.

    If we don't learn the true lessons of history, we will continue to make the same mistakes they did.

    Gus
     
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  4. Aug 13, 2019 #464

    tenngun

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    We live in the here and now and never can go back. We can’t unlearn what we know. I do think however, to understand history we have to understand their view of history.
    It’s easy to learn that X happened, it’s important to know why X happened, and it is at least my goal to try and see how people who saw X happening saw it as good or bad for them.
    Just a hundred years ago Doctors and scientist would argue about a menstruating women’s touch spoiling bacon.
    What we call silly superstition today was held as fact. What seems completely indefensible today was the way everyone from JohnQ Public to the learned leaders and philosophers thought and never or rarely questioned.
    When a few people came up with the ‘whacky absurd’ idea that slaves should be free, reasonable people patted them on the head and said ‘that’s nice, now go play’
    Even most people that lived in free states or free countries were not overly concerned about the whole of the slavery issue. They had life to worry about. Outside of New England few of the men who picked up a musket for the north wanted to free ‘them darkies’.
    Had the abolitionist not attacked the slave owner as greedy( they were no more greedy then the northern business owner), unchristian ( they thought of them selves as good Christmas saving the heathen) evil( no one tolerates being called that), cruel ( look to the beam in your eye, the improvised factory workers of the north exploited and treated worse then slaves, before you look to the mote in southerner eyes) they may have got farther in their argument.
     
  5. Aug 13, 2019 #465

    Carbon 6

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    Yep, the war brought about the abolishment of slavery quicker than it probably would have happened on its own. Credit for that goes to the North though, not the South.
    There is also one thing you keep overlooking when you tout Northern slavery, and that is the number of slaves held in the North. It was almost inconsequential compared to the south.
     
  6. Aug 13, 2019 #466

    Carbon 6

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    Your argument is nonsensical.
    If a slave was worth as much or more than a journeyman, then it would have been more economically practical to hire simple farm laborers to pick cotton.

    More math that don't add up.
     
  7. Aug 13, 2019 #467

    Carbon 6

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    Yep, those who favored slavery went to extremes to justify that position.
    The above narrative talking points need to remembered that they were the justifications of slave owners, a minority. They did not represent the larger consensus.
     
  8. Aug 13, 2019 #468

    Carbon 6

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    I hope anyone reading the above, actually does an in-depth study of history regarding slavery.
    What you wrote is a terrible attempt at apologetics. I say terrible because it uses ignorance as a justification.

    If everyone thought slavery was just fine then why was the perception that Northern States ignored the fugitive slave law a major justification for secession?

    The real truth is that slavery has always been opposed and in the case of the civil war, it was a 50 year long battle to permanently outlaw it.
     
  9. Aug 13, 2019 #469

    Juice Jaws

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    Not sure exactly what point you're trying to make, but I'm sure we agree.[/QUOTE]

    Yes we agree, sometimes it sounds real good in my head, but my fingers don't always type it out as good as it sounds. Glad we got that clear up
     
  10. Aug 13, 2019 #470

    Eutycus

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    Another tid bit on Confederate Money. Every so often the signature of "R.O. Tyler" comes up as Register. This was one of the sons of Ex President John Tyler ( who was elected CS Senator but died in ). Almost every bill was hand signed then cut from a sheet with scissors. Can you imagine millions of dollars signed and cut one bill at a time! Talk about repetitive. Did they have Carpal tunnel syndrome back then?
     
  11. Aug 13, 2019 #471

    Carbon 6

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    Yes we agree, sometimes it sounds real good in my head, but my fingers don't always type it out as good as it sounds. Glad we got that clear up[/QUOTE]

    Though I was the only one that had that problem.:D
     
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  12. Aug 13, 2019 #472

    Carbon 6

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    I would have gone "bonkers "
    I hope it payed good.
     
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  13. Aug 13, 2019 #473

    Eutycus

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    In a way it kind of did , Actual pay was low but clerks in Richmond got an exemption from the Army. Better a boring job than getting shot at by Yankees.
     
  14. Aug 13, 2019 #474

    Carbon 6

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    Well, in that case, where do I sign? :D
     
  15. Aug 13, 2019 #475

    Eutycus

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    Interesting book by a John Jones. I think his first name is John? Something about Diary of a Rebel War Clerk in the title. Which I can't recall exactly at the moment. It's been a while since I read that book. But it does give some insight of wartime Richmond. There were lots of parts to the WBTS beside military campaigns. Civilan life , the home front, blockade running, food substitutes, etc. There are several interesting "Diarys"out there. Mary Chesnut and Arthur Freemantle come to mind.The Homefront probably contained more people than the military did.
     
  16. Aug 13, 2019 #476

    Artificer

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    The Credit goes to the U.S. Black Soldiers of the 54th MA Regiment who showed the example when leading the White Soldiers in the charge on Fort Wagner and other Black Soldiers who came into the War about the time the North was almost ready to throw in the towel and quit the War. Had it not been for those Black Soldiers who fought so well, the North probably would have sued for peace.

    Rubbish. I have gone in great detail in past posts outlining how Northern States had freed their slaves, but of course only AFTER those States were forced to do it like MA or when it became economically convenient with all the boat loads of poor "throw away" immigrant labor, who were far cheaper to use than slaves. Credit must also be given to the Industrial Revolution when machinery became cheaper to use in many ways than man power.

    This while YANKEE ships brought over the majority of slaves to this country, before and after it was illegal to do so.

    Gus .
     
  17. Aug 13, 2019 #477

    Carbon 6

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    Yep!.
    Too bad the South couldn't motivate slaves to fight for their own enslavement. Then maybe the South would have won.
     
  18. Aug 13, 2019 #478

    Carbon 6

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    Once free, no longer counted as a slave.
     
  19. Aug 13, 2019 #479

    Artificer

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    Actually, the South did finally allow Slaves to fight for their freedom, but far too late. Yet, there are quite a few of their progeny here in the South, that are proud their forbears fought against the Northern Invaders.

    Gus
     
  20. Aug 13, 2019 #480

    tenngun

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    Ah there is the rub. Slave owners invested heavily in their slaves and like any investment expect a return on their money. A slave had to work years to pay off.
    A factory owner could pay starvation wages, let his workers live in dirty unsafe tenements, fire them at will or lay them off with nothing in slow times. Their babies could die by the cart load, their old too, there was always another ship on the horizon full of starving workers.
    Slaves had to be fed, and housed and given medical care, a dead baby was expensive. And it ended up meaning elderly and sick had to be taken care of.
    With the end of slavery the ex slave owner discovered share cropping, and infact many of the share crop owners were carpet baggers, and the new freeman could discover a life as good as northern factory workers.
    To accuse the southerners of ignorance because they didn’t have twenty first century attitudes toward race is a social elitism that taints our ability to understand the past.
    The ‘fact’ that one race was better then another as defined by intelligence, ability to make logical decisions and-not be ruled by emotion, inborn moral, or ethical if you prefer,code wasn’t crazy rednecks, this was Darwin and Huxley, it was the view held by the greatest minds of the age. They knew it as well as they knew the sun came up in the east.
    The idea that for fifty years there had been a war on slavery is not supported by the facts. Most people in the north didn’t care,most people in the world still supported slavery . And no where did there exist the idea that races were equal.
     

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