The War Between The States Discussions

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tenngun

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Just thinking on it a bit more. I’m sure it would be laughable to compare killing more then one in ten southern adult males to Stalins Holocaust. And my my my, comparing a northern POW camp to a gulag? Humphhh. And my God, who could possibly compare what Lincoln did to southern property to Stalin’s seizure of property and destruction of wealth. And it’s not like Lincoln disenfranchised every one in the south.
Yup yup yup, bad old southerners were just like Stalin, and not like Lincoln at all:rolleyes:
 

Carbon 6

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:ghostly:Well comparing a society that kept slaves to a murdering society like Stalin’s or Moa’s makes sense. And for sure we wouldn’t say that about Lincoln. Just ask the Sioux of Minnesota how well they were treated compared to Stalins treatment of soviet minorities:D.
Guess you forgot about the Cherokees huh. Just because it didn't happen during the time of the Confederacy doesn't mean the south gets a free pass. When it comes to natives, everyone has blood stained hands.
The comforting thing about the Confederacy is that they were challenged and halted from the very beginning. I shutter at the thought of the atrocities they would have committed had they been allow to exist as a nation.
 

tenngun

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I’m thinking there was a Cherokee or two in the southern army. And had a few Cherokee officers and the first Indian general that wasn’t British.
I think you missed what I was saying above.
Revolutionary governments normally appoint first leaders based on election results of a very small group. I did mention Stalin and Mao as a among a few examples. You drew a line from the south to Stalin. I just pointed out Lincoln had too a similarity to Stalin or Mao , at least as much as any one in the south.
 

tenngun

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No, I think any comparison of the south with a twentieth century tyrannical regime is as valid pointed at Lincoln. To make such a comparison is equal hyperbole.
 

tenngun

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Nor can you with the south. Applying the same rules to the south you could apply to Lincoln. Or British empire or the French empire. More easily to Spain or the Belgians.
 

Eutycus

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A couple of weeks following the inauguration of Jefferson Davis the very first Confederate Flag was raised over the Capitol building in Montgomery, Alabama on March 4, 1861. It was raised by the granddaughter of ex-president John Tyler, Miss Leticia Christian Tyler. This flag was not the Confederate Battle Flag.The Battle Flag with the St. Andrews or Southern Cross wouldn't be designed for almost half a year yet. It was the first National Flag also known the "Stars and Bars".
 

Carbon 6

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Well you can if you try to ignore the facts and let emotion color your thinking
Which facts am I ignoring in making a parallel comparison ?
I'm not saying they are equal, just that more parallels can be drawn with the Confederacy than with the Union.
Where is the emotion ?
 

tenngun

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To draw a connection between the south and Stalin , and not apply that same set of rules to Lincoln can only be seen as emotion response to hatred of pre war southern culture. A feeling that any thing that crushed that culture was ‘good’ and if that did not excuse, it at least mitigated Lincoln’s activities.
Remember Lincoln sent an army south that killed more then 10% of the adult male citizens of the south
Lincoln sent an army south that destroyed billions of dollars worth of property.
Lincoln violated basic freedoms of the northern population, striking down Habeas corpus, violating peoples rights to free speech and press.
Lincoln dispossessed people of legally held property on a vast scale.
Lincoln used the power of the federal government to smash minority population.
It’s silly to compare the south or Lincoln to a murdering Dictator.
But, if you can draw a line from the south to Stalin it runs right through old Abe.
 

Carbon 6

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To draw a connection between the south and Stalin , and not apply that same set of rules to Lincoln can only be seen as emotion response to hatred of pre war southern culture
The reverse would also be an emotion, but neither is the basis for my comparison.


Lincoln’s activities.
Remember Lincoln sent an army south that killed more then 10% of the adult male citizens of the south
Lincoln sent an army south that destroyed billions of dollars worth of property.
Lincoln violated basic freedoms of the northern population, striking down Habeas corpus, violating peoples rights to free speech and press.
Lincoln dispossessed people of legally held property on a vast scale.
Lincoln used the power of the federal government to smash minority population.
Where are your parallels for Stalin ?
 

ppg1949

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A couple of weeks following the inauguration of Jefferson Davis the very first Confederate Flag was raised over the Capitol building in Montgomery, Alabama on March 4, 1861. It was raised by the granddaughter of ex-president John Tyler, Miss Leticia Christian Tyler. This flag was not the Confederate Battle Flag.The Battle Flag with the St. Andrews or Southern Cross wouldn't be designed for almost half a year yet. It was the first National Flag also known the "Stars and Bars".
Was it Beauregard that designed the CSA battle flag? I read that even with field glasses and with no wind to flutter a flag it was difficult to distinguish the Stars and Stripes from the Stars and Bars. The first national CSA flag is my favorite. The Starry Crossed battle flag is now commonly called the Stars and Bars by most people, at least where I live.
 

tenngun

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Really???
Stalin used government force to take away peoples basic rights, just as Lincoln did, shutting down free speech and free press, extralegally imprisioning people.
Stalin sent his army in to areas ‘in rebellion’ decimating the local population, just as Lincoln.
Stalin seized legally held property, improvising the rightful owners, as did Lincoln.
Lincoln disenfranchised much of the population built on political differences, as did Stalin.
Stalin used the force of the government to squash minority populations, as did Lincoln.
Stalin carried out his activities in the name of ‘Greater Good’ and ‘freeing’ his people from the ‘horrors’ of capitalism, religion and independent thought. As Lincoln justified his activities for the greater good, after the emancipated proclamation making it a war on southern wealth.
The connection is there... it’s a stretch ,but if your going to compare the south to Stalin then you can’t ignore Lincoln’s activities.
 

tenngun

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Was it Beauregard that designed the CSA battle flag? I read that even with field glasses and with no wind to flutter a flag it was difficult to distinguish the Stars and Stripes from the Stars and Bars. The first national CSA flag is my favorite. The Starry Crossed battle flag is now commonly called the Stars and Bars by most people, at least where I live.
I read a manual from the Napoleonic wars that told how to estimate range visually. You don’t have to get very far away to blur.
Doing my own experiments I found that dark blue and even dark red can blend in to the woods real quick.
The war was full of ‘friendly fire’ incidents. It’s easy to see why.
 

Carbon 6

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Stalin used government force to take away peoples basic rights,
That is exactly what the confederacy did.
What Lincoln did was well within his rights under the constitution, and in direct response to an armed insurrection.
Stalin seized legally held property, improvising the rightful owners, as did Lincoln.
Our government still does that today, it's called eminent domain. In fact I think I heard something the other day about our current president trying to circumvent eminent domain to build the wall, I'd have to look into that.

Lincoln disenfranchised much of the population built on political differences, as did Stalin.
Maybe, but how does that compare to actually seceding by minority votes.Now that's real disenfranchisement.

Stalin used the force of the government to squash minority populations,
You mean like the south did when the enslaved 4 million people, or when they harassed, killed, and ran abolitionists out of the south ? Or was it when they intimidated people so they wouldn't vote against secession?


Stalin carried out his activities in the name of ‘Greater Good’ and ‘freeing’ his people from the ‘horrors’ of capitalism, religion and independent thought. As Lincoln justified his activities for the greater good, after the emancipated proclamation making it a war on southern wealth.
"Horrors of capitalism etc.", do you mean like Slavery, and war for profit, because the confederacy did all of those.

Lincoln had a constitutional obligation to win win the war, and restore the union. To say that it was "for the greater good", that the constitution was the foundation for that greater good.

The connection is there... it’s a stretch ,but if your going to compare the south to Stalin then you can’t ignore Lincoln’s activities.
Yes it is a stretch. I can ignore it because anything stretched that thin is irrelevant, it's like say Lincoln and Stalin were both born under the same astrological sign. Which they weren't in case you were wondering.
 
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