The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Dec 9, 2019 #3361

    arcticap

    arcticap

    arcticap

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    Before Uncle Sam, the personification of the United States was Columbia, also known as Miss Columbia or the Goddess Columbia. America being called Columbia may have originated with Columbus having discovered America. Many political cartoons depicted America as Columbia.--->>> https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018...f-the-united-states-was-the-goddess-columbia/

    tumblr_luqlfdOoaM1qi1raio1_500.jpg
    She has often been a martial figure, as with this call to remember the Spirit of '61 (1861, that is): --->>> https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/03/when-america-was-female/273672/

    jefferson-davis-cartoon.jpg
    COLUMBIA AWAKE AT LAST. --->>> http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1861/june/jeff-davis-cartoon.htm

    hercules.jpg
    This cartoon depicts General Scott as Hercules slaying the great hydra. [The leaders of secession] --->>> https://multimedialearningllc.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/civil-war-era-political-cartoon/

    Below the heads say Robbery, Extortion, Treason, Perjury, Piracy, Lying, Hatred & Blasphemy. [Stevens, Davis, Beauregard and others]

    default (1).jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  2. Dec 9, 2019 #3362

    Carbon 6

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  3. Dec 9, 2019 #3363

    arcticap

    arcticap

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    Rose O'Neal Greenhow (1813 or 1814[1]– October 1, 1864) was a renowned Confederate spy during the American Civil War. A socialite in Washington, D.C., during the period before the war, she moved in important political circles and cultivated friendships with presidents, generals, senators, and high-ranking military officers including John C. Calhoun and James Buchanan.[2] She used her connections to pass along key military information to the Confederacy at the start of the war. In early 1861, she was given control of a pro-Southern spy network in Washington, D.C., by her handler, Thomas Jordan, then a captain in the Confederate Army. She was credited by Jefferson Davis, the Confederate president, with ensuring the South's victory at the First Battle of Bull Run in late July 1861.

    The government found that information was being leaked and the trail led to Rose Greenhow's residence, Greenhow was subject to house arrest; found to have continued her activities, in 1862 after an espionage hearing, she, with her daughter "Little Rose", was imprisoned for nearly five months in Washington, D.C. Deported to the Confederate States, she traveled to Richmond, Virginia and began new tasks. Running the blockade, she sailed to Europe to represent the Confederacy in a diplomatic mission to France and Britain from 1863 to 1864. In 1863, she also wrote and published her memoir in London, which was popular in Britain. After her returning ship ran aground in 1864 off the coast of Wilmington, North Carolina, she drowned when her rowboat overturned as she tried to escape a Union gunboat. She was honored with a Confederate military funeral.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_O'Neal_Greenhow


    About Rose O'Neal Greenhow.

    Rose O'Neal Greenhow was born in Montgomery County, Maryland in 1817. "Wild Rose", as she was called from a young age, was a leader in Washington society, a passionate secessionist, and one of the most renowned spies in the Civil War. Among her accomplishments was the secret message she sent to General Pierre G.T. Beauregard which ultimately caused him to win the battle of Bull Run. She spied so successfully for the Confederacy that Jefferson Davis credited her with winning the battle of Manassas.

    She was imprisoned for her efforts first in her own home and then in the Old Capital Prison. Despite her confinement, Greenhow continued getting messages to the Confederacy by means of cryptic notes which traveled in unlikely places such as the inside of a woman's bun of hair. After her second prison term, she was exiled to the Confederate states where she was received warmly by President Jefferson Davis.

    Her next mission was to tour Britain and France as a propagandist for the Confederate cause. Two months after her arrival in London, her memoirs were published and enjoyed a wide sale throughout the British Isles. In Europe, Greenhow found a strong sympathy for the South, especially among the ruling classes. During the course of her travels she hobnobbed with many members of the nobility. In Paris, she was received into the court of Napoleon III and was granted an audience with the Emperor at the Tuileries. Rose's diary (August 5, 1863 - August 10, 1864), held in the North Carolina State Archives in Raleigh, NC, describes her mission in great detail.

    In 1864, after a year abroad, she boarded the Condor, a British blockade-runner which was to take her home. Just before reaching her destination, the vessel ran aground at the mouth of the Cape Fear River near Wilmington, North Carolina. In order to avoid the Union gunboat that pursued her ship, Rose fled in rowboat, but never made it to shore. Her little boat capsized and she was dragged down by the weight of the gold she received in royalties for her book.

    In October 1864, Rose was buried with full military honors in the Oakdale Cemetery in Wilmington. Her coffin was wrapped in the Confederate flag and carried by Confederate troops. The marker for her grave, a marble cross, bears the epitaph, "Mrs. Rose O'N. Greenhow, a bearer of dispatchs [sic] to the Confederate Government."
    https://library.duke.edu/rubenstein/scriptorium/greenhow/


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    This photograph, taken by the famous Civil War photographer Matthew Brady, shows Rose O'Neal Greenhow and her daughter, who were imprisoned for espionage for almost five months in Washington, D.C. --->>> https://www.ancestry.com/contextux/historicalinsights/civil-war-life-in-the-south

     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  4. Dec 9, 2019 #3364

    Straekat

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    The subject was not discussed pro or con during sessions.

    Can you provide a SINGLE example of any country prior to 1789 that willingly accepted the unilateral secession of a portion of it's territory without the act being considered rebellion by the government of the day?

    If governments of the day considered unilateral secession without the government whose territory and people are being taken from them consent, then how is it different from open rebellion, and why would there be a need for explicitly stating a need to prohibit secession if it was considered rebellion? It appears in actual practice, prior to 1789, no one made an meaningful distinction between the two. We already know the Constitution specifically speaks to the matter of rebellion and treason, and the authority the government had in reacting to either.

    I've already done some checking on when the word "secession" entered the political lexicon, and suggest you do the same before taking the safety catch off the keypad and punching in what comes into your mind first. I suggest looking up the origins of the word and it's earliest usages as a starting point. You will find that two early synonyms used in definitions during the early 19th century include rebellion and revolt. Ask yourself why that is, and what it implies. (Hint, it implies the framers did not consider unilateral secession, and rebellion/revolt/insurrection being any different from the other.)


    Since you state things and expect others to demonstrate that you are wrong, let's put the burden on you of showing examples of how unilateral secession and rebellion were thought to be different enough that the term rebellion was simpler, more direct, and the view that unilateral secession/rebellion were covered by the Constitution.

    Can you make the case they are different and were considered differently when the Constitution was ratified. and why they would have felt the need to make secession illegal if they considered it another word for rebellion?
     
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  5. Dec 9, 2019 #3365

    LME

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    Why confuse you with the facts? Your mind is made up.
     
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  6. Dec 9, 2019 #3366

    tenngun

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    Simply when it wasn’t addressed.
    The constitution was passed by the states, off hand I don’t recall the last state to join, but the government started to function before it was voted in by all thirteen, would the federal power been able to invade that last state?
    Knowing secession was illegal why would New Englanders bring it up. Why would South Carolina in ‘39 threaten it on its own, ON ITS OWN, knowing it could not possibly defend itself from the other states, threaten to do something it knew to be illegal.
    One can not make an argument that people of the 1790- at least 1839 felt the states could not leave the union. When Texas would enter it was clear in ‘46 that Texas had a right to sever ties with the union.
    Did Texas have a right no other state did?
     
  7. Dec 9, 2019 #3367

    Straekat

    Straekat

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    Your's isn't?
     
  8. Dec 9, 2019 #3368

    Carbon 6

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    You can't change history, and you can't change facts no mater how much you confuse them. Revisionist and negationism tactics are useless upon me.
    But, you are welcome to entertain me with your rhetoric. :D
     
  9. Dec 9, 2019 #3369

    Straekat

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    The first amendment allows a great deal of latitude to write, speak publicly, and talk about something. That amendment was an afterthought to the Constitution. It wasn't brought up when the document was being drafted. That's worth thinking about and why they didn't think about the first ten amendments being included from the very beginning of the drafting process. The framers were not all seeing, and the fact the amendments were not thought of being important to be included in the first version of the Constitution, is a strong indication they didn't feel some things had to be expressively covered in writing.

    That is in line with why "secession" was not expressly mentioned, as they very likely felt it was covered through the application of the definitions of treason and rebellion.

    The government after 1789 permitted a great deal of free speech, and let many commentaries slide as a way for the public and politicians to vent steam. Advocacy or threats may be permitted in a tolerant society (unlike the south's hatred of free speech and attempts to criminalize it when it came from abolitionists wherever they lived in the nation), however, on the other hand, acting on those threats is another matter entirely.

    That distinction is important.
     
  10. Dec 9, 2019 #3370

    Straekat

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    Have much experience with teenage kids and their ability to put a mouth into high gear making all sorts of statements?

    If you didn't have a teenage son, do you know someone who did? Ask them if the son ever wrote checks with his mouth that his body couldn't cash, and couldn't make it on his own.
     
  11. Dec 9, 2019 #3371

    Carbon 6

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    The important question isn't who wanted to secede, or even if they could secede, but rather why they wanted to secede.

    Seceding had nothing to do with freedom, it was a power struggle.
     
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  12. Dec 9, 2019 #3372

    arcticap

    arcticap

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    Pres. Jackson threatened South Carolina with military action over the nullification crises which only involved collecting tariffs and its threat to secede.

    Anyone would be hard pressed to actually prove that the New England states discussed secession at the Hartford Convention.
    While they may have, the convention was held in secret and the speculation about secession being discussed basically ended the Federalist Party.
    The speculation could have been spread by the Democrat-Republican Party to gain political advantage.
    If secession was discussed then the cooler heads prevailed at the Hartford Convention as the radicals were outnumbered.
    In the end, the convention only proposed Constitutional Amendments.
    However Pres. Madison did move troops from the Canadian border to Albany, NY as a show of Federal supremacy in case they were needed.

    The Texas V White decision has been mentioned many times already.

    In accepting original jurisdiction, the court ruled that, legally speaking, Texas had remained a United States state ever since it first joined the Union, despite its joining the Confederate States of America and its being under military rule at the time of the decision in the case. In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to unilaterally secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null" --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White

    -------------------------

    The defendants contended that, while a state may bring a suit in the Supreme Court, Texas had no such right in this case because it had seceded and, therefore, the federal law was not applicable at the time the bonds were transferred. The Supreme Court held that the intention of the Confederate States to secede meant that they had only temporarily lost privileges of Union membership but had not lost membership itself. Writing for the court, Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase commented that the federal Constitution “in all its provisions looks to an indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States.” Thus, the Supreme Court decreed by law what the Union’s Civil War victory had effected by force, namely, the principle that no state may secede from the Union. --->>> https://www.britannica.com/event/Texas-v-White


    The Founders of all of the states were aware that the proposed Constitution included provisions for the Federal gov't. to be able to suppress rebellion, insurrection and secession.
    All of the state founders voted for the Constitution knowing that the states couldn't legally leave the Union once the Constitution was passed.
    The founders chose not to include a legal way out because they were all committed to forming the United States of America and increasing Federal power compared to the Articles of Confederation under which the Federal powers were believed to be too weak.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  13. Dec 9, 2019 #3373

    Straekat

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    You asked. NO. The answer is contrary to a myth based on many Texans never reading the documents pertaining to the annexation of Texas, how Houston wanted in the Union and some elsewhere, other states didn't want annexation,

    If you think Texas had the right to secede when it joined the Union, here's the link to an official web-site created, owned and operated by none other than that place south of the Red River called Texas. Now you can read the actual words in those documents, not what someone tells you they think is in there.

    https://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/abouttx/annexation/index.html

    No mention of any (mythical) *right* of being able to leave the Union after being admitted in the 1840s.
     
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  14. Dec 9, 2019 #3374

    tenngun

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    I’m sorry that is so absurd. States talking about leaving the union and not one person in government steps up to say , the union is perpetual.
    Their just tolerating that speech???? Give us a break. How quickly after the constitution was adopted was ‘sedition’ tried against people speaking out against the president?
    Maybe you can recall how quickly Lincoln went after habeas corpus? Shut down ‘seditious’ news papers
    How often do you get in touch with your friend to talk about killing some one, maybe robbing a bank or taking over a state, maybe setting up a drug cartel?
    Oh, you don’t do that?
    Why not? Oh you know it’s illegal, you know it’s wrong. So people got around to hold a convention to talk about doing an illegal act? But it was just for S&G no body was really serious??? It was just for kicks, pass the pitcher of beer????Can I interest you in a bridge. Good business opportunity, cash only please.
     
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  15. Dec 9, 2019 #3375

    tenngun

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    It is a power struggle: it’s a fight between those who believe in political freedom who believe the government is the servant of the people;and those who believe ‘the people’ are subjects of the government.
     
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  16. Dec 9, 2019 #3376

    DaveC

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    https://gahistoricnewspapers.galileo.usg.edu/lccn/sn82015886/1863-04-23/ed-1/seq-2/

    Savannah, GA Savannah Daily Morning News Thursday, 23 April 1863 "Confederate Flag and Seal":
    [​IMG]

    From the article: "Our idea is simply to combine the present battle flag with a pure white standard sheet, our Southern cross, blue, on a red field, to take the place in the white flag that is occupied by the blue union in the old United States flag or the St. George's cross in the British flag. As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior colored race. A white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Upon a red field would stand forth our Southern cross, gemmed with the stars of our Confederation."

    Much of the rest of the primary source makes interesting and illuminating reading too.
     
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  17. Dec 9, 2019 #3377

    Carbon 6

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    :eek: Um, never! That's called collusion or conspiracy. It's illegal, even if you don't actually do it, but your friend does.
     
  18. Dec 9, 2019 #3378

    Carbon 6

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    Blacks were servants and subjects of the confederacy, so was the poor and the soldier.
    Political freedom can be a slippery slope, as one many's freedom is another's tyranny. Freedom belongs to all men, and the government serves all people. When it does not, then you are no longer free.
     
  19. Dec 9, 2019 #3379

    Straekat

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    The sedition idea was Adams, a man famous for not being able to take a joke aimed at him. His pomposity often got in the way of his being able to deal with people who weren't as uptight as he was. There are more than a few people who get bent out of shape over trivial things.

    As usual, you forget to consider wartime actions of the Lincoln administration versus peacetime ones in the southern states. The south was far worse in violating first amendment rights, repeatedly and with determination. Ant-abolitionist southerns liked his idea of clamping down on dissent and ranked it up a few notches. Care to recall all the things southern states to suppress anything that was a threat, existential or imaginary that was considered a threat to slavery. Mail was censored, southern states intentionally did not include Lincoln's name on the ballot in 1860, southern newspaper editors were threatened, papers shut down, it was illegal to teach slaves to read or write, and a LONG laundry list of other actions all in the name of keeping slavery a viable institution.

    The south's reactionary moves were in peacetime, while Lincoln was responding to a war foisted off on him when the southern states started what you try to call, a not so important cause for war, at Sumter. Lincoln had a war to win, What was the south's excuse for what they did during peacetime.
     
  20. Dec 9, 2019 #3380

    Straekat

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    Are you hinting that maybe you do? I certainly don't, and don't make jokes about breaking any laws.
     

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