The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Dec 2, 2019 at 9:32 PM #3101

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

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    Congress outlawed flogging aboard US Navy ships in September 1850.
    Ten years before the civil war.
    Military flogging was abolished in the United States Army on 5 August 1861
     
  2. Dec 2, 2019 at 11:26 PM #3102

    tenngun

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    So, whites were being whipped contemporary with slaves being whipped.
    At least I’m glad you found out it happened.
     
  3. Dec 2, 2019 at 11:36 PM #3103

    tenngun

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    How did getting whipped in Private differ from in public?
    Did it some how hurt more?
    Private punishments only made it in to the record if the slave survived???? Do you really imagine whites were just killing slaves left and right for fun?
    “Why Jen ya should o’seen it. What I kilt $3000 (near six years middle class yearly wages) worth o’stock this last month. Well on my way to killin’$10000 worth this year.’
    “If’ns I can keep this up I can be completely broke in four years. Taint it grand”
    I guess the very fact that all these death are not recorded must be prof that it happened.
     
  4. Dec 3, 2019 at 1:46 AM #3104

    Carbon 6

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    Still haven't figured it out yet.
    Keep trying.:(
     
  5. Dec 3, 2019 at 2:22 AM #3105

    tenngun

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    Explain it to me.
    Objectively not subjectively please.
     
  6. Dec 3, 2019 at 6:34 AM #3106

    Carbon 6

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    Been trying to for 156 pages.
     
  7. Dec 3, 2019 at 6:41 AM #3107

    arcticap

    arcticap

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    Denying that extreme forms of slave torture existed and were arbitrarily practiced is like trying to deny that the holocaust took place.

    The caption for the photo below states:
    Instruments of Torture
    Thumbscrews, cotton screws, metal and wood neck collars with protruding spikes, and metal masks were all placed on enslaved people, sometimes for months at a time, to remind them of defying the slave master’s wishes.
    slave-collar-600x575.jpg

    https://atlantablackstar.com/2014/10/03/10-barbaric-and-heartbreaking-ways-enslaved-black-people-were-punished-by-their-slave-masters/2/

    A sadistic slave murder in Virginia in 1850:

    Not always did slave-torturers go scot-free, however. In June, 1850, Mr. Souther of Hanover County, a sadist whom students of abnormal psychology would have found interesting today, was arrested on the charge of murdering one of his slaves. Souther's indictment read in part:

    The Negro was tied to a tree and whipped with switches. When Souther became fatigued with the labour of whipping, he called upon a Negro man of his, and made him cob Sam with a shingle. He also made a Negro woman of his help to cob him. And after cobbing and whipping, he applied fire to the body of the slave; about his back, belly and private parts. He then caused him to be washed down with hot water, in which pods of red pepper had been steeped. The Negro was also tied to log and to the bed post with ropes, which choked him, and he was kicked and stamped by Souther. This sort of punishment was continued and repeated until the Negro died under its infliction.

    Found guilty of murder in the first degree, Souther filed a bill of exception that asserted: "But it did not appear that it was the design of the prisoner to kill the said slave, unless such design be properly inferrible from the manner, means and duration of the punishment." A second court reaffirmed the act as murder and sentenced Souther to serve five years in the penitentiary." --->>> https://www.encyclopediavirginia.or...ne_an_excerpt_from_The_Negro_in_Virginia_1969

    I previously mentioned to simply Google "pumishment of slaves" and there's many references to known torture events.
    Or start out by reading Wikipedia's "Treatment of Slaves":--->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_of_slaves_in_the_United_States

    The senseless torturing of slaves on plantations was often done simply to assert dominance.
    "Slaves were punished by whipping, shackling, hanging, beating, burning, mutilation, branding, rape, and imprisonment. Punishment was often meted out in response to disobedience or perceived infractions, but sometimes abuse was performed to re-assert the dominance of the master (or overseer) over the slave"
    Why beat a pregnant slave's belly or a female slave simply for grieving over a lost child?
    Why flog children to death?

    That's why Lincoln was elected to become President in the first place.
    The south was not only afraid of him and his anti-expansionist agenda but afraid of the multitudes of citizens who had learned about the types of inhuman treatment from slaves that had escaped to the north over many decades , as well as from northerners who visited the south and saw the working conditions first hand.

    That's the same reason why the KKK continued to torture for years after the war was over., simply to assert white supremacy.
    Sure, a lot of Americans were afflicted with prejudice, but less acted on it.

    The abolitionist movement grew over so many decades that when the south seceded, it was clear that the division caused by slavery needed to come to an end just like in the rest of the civilized western world.

    I guess that's why some believed in fighting fire with fire.

    Quotation-William-Tecumseh-Sherman-War-is-cruelty-There-is-no-use-trying-to-reform-27-1-0116.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 7:04 AM
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  8. Dec 3, 2019 at 8:16 AM #3108

    arcticap

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    Many civil war monuments in the north feature the Roman Goddess Victoria, or Nike in Greek signifying speed, strength and victory.
    While her crown of laurel signifies victory and triumph, she also extends a palm leaf leading them to peace and reconciliation.

    This statue of Sherman in New York City is famous because he moved there after the war and was seen riding his horse through Central Park daily.
    Being covered with gold leaf, t's considered to be one of the most beautiful statues in New York City.

    depositphotos_44949241-stock-photo-william-tecumseh-sherman-memorial-new.jpg sherman-grand-army-plaza-central-park-restoration (1).jpg c.jpg

    This is the civil war monument in my home town which the names of the soldiers and sailors are inscribed on the walls of the inner chamber.
    It also has the golden winged figure of Victoria at the very top extending the laurel leaf of victory.
    Two-tier fountains, once fed by streams of water from the mouths of lions' heads, are on the east and west sides.
    603208-Large-exterior-soldiers-monument-in-central-park-viewed-from-the-south.jpg

    P1180285.JPG

    On the different sides are tablets with inscriptions::


    ~ OH RARE AND ROYAL / WAS THE SACRIFICE ~

    THIS MONUMENT IS BUILT IN
    GRATEFUL REMEMBRANCE OF
    THE SOLDIERS AND SAILORS
    WHO IN THE WAR TO MAINTAIN
    THE UNION OFFERED THEIR
    LIVES IN THE CAUSE OF MANKIND
    THAT COMING GENERATIONS
    TAUGHT BY THEIR EXAMPLE MAY
    CHERISH THE FRUITS OF THEIR
    VALOR AND DEVOTION AND MAKE
    THEIR MEMORY IMMORTAL


    ~ FOR YOU AND ME THEY / PUT THEIR ARMOR ON ~

    ~ LET US HAVE PEACE / GRANT ~


    ~ FOR YOU AND ME THEY / STOOD IN GRIM ARRAY ~

    ~ LIBERTY AND UNION / NOW AND FOREVER / ONE INSEPARABLE / WEBSTER ~

    ~ THEY JOINED THE MORTAL / STRUGGLE AND WENT DOWN ~

    ~ TO HEROES LIVING / AND DEAR MARTYRS / DEAD / LOWELL ~





     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 8:22 AM
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  9. Dec 3, 2019 at 1:33 PM #3109

    Bibs

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    "At the PEAK of slavery in 1860, only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves. What your history books doesn’t tell you is that 3,000 blacks owned a total of 20,000 slaves the same year."
     
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  10. Dec 3, 2019 at 2:04 PM #3110

    Carbon 6

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    We've covered that several times already. Some Blacks would purchase family members or a spouse so they could stay together as a family and not be separated.

    I'm sure the idea of having slaves purchase each other was hatched by a slave owner as a way of getting two or three slaves for the price of one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 2:12 PM
  11. Dec 3, 2019 at 3:49 PM #3111

    tenngun

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    Black owned and slave worked were known in Louisiana. We have records of black slave owners traveling to South Carolina to buy slaves ‘as the prices were better’
    The idea that black slave owners only bought family members Is a myth.
     
  12. Dec 3, 2019 at 4:00 PM #3112

    tenngun

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    No you’ve told me southren slavery was some how different but never what that difference was.
    Slaves were whipped white people were whipped.
    Slaves were bought and sold and families separated no matter what color they were throughout history.
    Slaves lived in poverty so did white factory workers, and a slave owner had a financial interest in keeping slaves able to work. A look at photos of slaves vs photos of impoverished factory workers show more robust slaves and starving factory workers living in a cesspit.
    In fact slaves in photos look healthier then their share cropper children.
    Was slavery at any time in human history a good thing? No!
    Was slavery in the south outstanding in the history of the world? No!
    As I said provide a objective statement. Your post have been full of subjective.
     
  13. Dec 3, 2019 at 5:03 PM #3113

    Straekat

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    Similarly, so have your own arguments/viewpoints done the same thing. Let's add to that, almost everyone posting has provided actual references or citations that state where they got their information instead of Trafalmadorians forced their neighboring planet inhabitants into slavery because everyone thought "x" about them at the time and somehow that made it ok. Actual verifiable sources other than attributions such as "the English did it" or the Spanish did that would be nice.

    Claiming southern slaves had it better than northern factory workers is a case in point. If life for slaves was better as you claim, can you cite a single recorded event where a poor southern white, or one of those northern factory workers you like to remind us about living in abject conditions in northern slums, EVER asked a southern slave owner if he could work for that slave owner and have that man provide him with all of the same benefits he provided slaves with? Can you find ONE? If you can't, can you explain why so many southern slaves wanted to escape and get as far away from southern slave owners as they possibly could?

    You don't have to keep harping on what happened in the centuries before slavery was established in the Americas, or what was going on elsewhere in the world were slaves were being kept. It is largely irrelevant as most countries determine their INTERNAL politics based on internal matters and viewpoints.

    The internal sectional problems facing the Union in the lead up to the southern rebellion (btw, it was not a war between the states....the Constitution, both northern and the southern scrap paper one written by the Davis administration did not give states the power to declare, make, or wage war.....it was the sole right of the government) were largely internal and contemporary problems that lead to the war. Not one single secession ordnance referred to slavery of centuries past, or elsewhere in the world as a justification for preserving the peculiar institution argued for by peculiar people.
     
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  14. Dec 3, 2019 at 5:42 PM #3114

    tenngun

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    Those historic references to how slavery was demonstrated that the south was acting ‘normally’ in its social setting. And that there was nothing unusual or crueler as compared to slavery in other places.
    South was made up of supreme states. So if your argument that that it was internal falls flat. There was zero ability in the constitution to address slavery in a state.
    And we are not talking about centuries before, we’re talking about the life times of the people who fought in the war. When did England out law slavery in its colonies? Hint not centuries before. Serfdom in east Europe? Hint not centuries before. Peonage in Mexico was existing at this time. And most of the worlds population approved slavery. The exception is west Europe and the north where a minority of the population was opposed to slavery.
    Who were the victims of lynching in the New York draft riots? Hint not Irishman
    The reason I talk about history of slavery in the world was because it was a normal part of human civilization, and suddenly, in terms of a human life , time the south was being told their culture their life style their economic system was immoral and unacceptable. And while the west and the north benefitted from the profits of slavery the south alone should bare the cost of ending it. The south alone should bare the guilt. The south, out of all of America, should have its property taken from them sans compensation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 5:53 PM
  15. Dec 3, 2019 at 6:30 PM #3115

    arcticap

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    On February 8, 1861, representatives of 7 states announced the formation of the Confederate States of America, with its capital at Montgomery, Alabama.
    before Lincoln took office on March 4, 1861.

    secessiondatesofsouthernstatesmap.jpg

    Wikipedia states that the new Confederate government that was established was considered illegal by the government of the United States.
    Why was it illegal?

    One reason may have been because of the "Compact Clause", Article I, Section 10, Clause 3 of the Constitution which states:

    "No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."


    https://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/1/essays/75/compact-clause

    That Article was passed as a way to supplement the Supremacy Clause and to help protect the Union and individual sister states from harm by other states and their "compacts."



     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 6:51 PM
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  16. Dec 3, 2019 at 7:22 PM #3116

    Carbon 6

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    I didn't say "only" you did. You are the one creating or propagating the myth.
    Considering that anyone who had some black blood in them was considered black, even if they looked white, I'm sure there where Black Whites that probably owned slaves, as well as numerous other reasons.
    To use your argument of blacks or slaves owning slaves as a defense of slavery is the view of white supremacy and racism that followed the civil war thought the reconstruction years to the present day.
    It's a complete fallacy.

    It is not representative of slavery as a whole in America.
     
  17. Dec 3, 2019 at 8:45 PM #3117

    tenngun

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    The fact that the CSA created a constitution preventing a state from withdrawing from the federation had nothing to do with what the US constitution said.... ie: nothing.
     
  18. Dec 3, 2019 at 9:24 PM #3118

    Straekat

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    You still can't wrap your head around the idea that historically, there are several types of slavery and they are not all the same. Claiming slavery in the south (or the rest of the Union) was the same flies in the face of historical and ethnographic records to the contrary.

    You were the first to make the claim it was in some ways better than being a poor factory worker in the north, and that it was somehow about the same as slavery around the rest of the world with little or no differences.

    In debates, the person who makes claims (first) is required to provide proof that can be verified, not opinions that are fobbed off as such. Since you made various claims about slavery being better than northern factory workers lives, punishments, etc, please go right ahead and back those statements up with some verifiable sources rather than opinions

    Previously you wrote about whipping of sailors, then Carbon 6 pointed out the US Navy banned it in 1850. Were you aware of that ban, particularly since you are a former member of the USN (as you've told us dozens of times in this thread), or didn't you know about it and still referred to it anyway in the hopes of making your point...despite the facts being absent or wrong?
     
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  19. Dec 3, 2019 at 9:55 PM #3119

    Straekat

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    My argument falls flat? Look in the mirror and repeat that to yourself.

    Previously you've claimed the abolition of slavery outside of the US didn't matter to southerners who believed in their right to own slaves was unimportant to how they thought....and now you bring up the idea that abolitionism outside the US is now (important to your contentions)?

    Then you go right back to that debunked idea that most of the world approved of slavery....at that time? Bulls...t. Carbon 6 has already posted a time-line of when various national governments abolished slavery. By the 1860's "most" country that approved of slavery was much smaller than you pretend existed.

    The state's rights argument only goes so far, and then the Constitution has that pesky supremacy clause that gets in the way of a good old emotional appeal in order to trump logic.

    The Constitution was created in order to use peaceful means of organizing and running a society, without resorting to violence. Inherent within that concept is the idea of determining matters through the ballot box. Although the country is a constitutional republic, it is run using democratic ideals and majority rule.

    Despite you harping constantly about a people being able to have a government of their choice, the right to rebellion is not as absolute as you preach. If you think there is an absolute right to rebel, that is your choice, however, the prevailing attitude of those who ruled at the time, felt they had a right to crush rebellions and woe unto the loser. Those who rebel, always do so at their own risk. Is that a right makes right argument? Using your own words, it's how people thought back then, and many still do today.

    I'll repeat what I've said before about the south not wanting to go along with the changes taking place in the country. The balance of power was changing away from the south's ability to stymie political changes regarding slavery, and they D I D N O T L I K E losing that ability. Instead of resolving the constitutionality of secession in the SCOTUS (even though the Chief Justice was a southern and sympathetic to states' rights, and the balance of the court was also inclined that way), they chose to act unilaterally while claiming an absolute right to do so. The southern states escalated matters by firing on Sumter, in the first major act of aggression during the war.

    The southern states were not the peaceful "leave us alone" sort of entity you've claimed. Countrary to your assertion, not only did the south start the war at Sumter, southern forces invaded New Mexico Territory in the summer of 1861 attempting to bring it into their control, but also Kentucky (neutral at the time) in the summer/fall of 1861, then again in 1862, thinking another state could also be brought into the south's orbit. Gee....THREE attempts to invade states that weren't at war with the south or hadn't sided either way, and that was before Lee's failed attempt to invade the north in 1862 and 1863. The south was not a "live and let live, leave us alone" place you have claimed it to be and the facts are contrary to your assertions otherwise.
     
  20. Dec 3, 2019 at 9:56 PM #3120

    Straekat

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    Have you actually read it (the southern one that is)?
     

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