The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum by donating:

  1. Nov 18, 2019 #2861

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    69 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,353
    Likes Received:
    1,267
    Lee, Grant, Bull run, the Alamo are ho hum. I like the oddities and unsung heroes. Things that make you pause and scratch your head.
    For example, it is said that more than 60,000 books have been written on the civil war since it ended, that's more than a book a day since.
    Or that there were two Jefferson Davis's One was president of the confederacy and the other was a Union Brigadier General who killed his superior officer.
     
  2. Nov 18, 2019 #2862

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,892
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Republic mo
    It gave America History. Until then American History wasn’t much of a subject. Page Smith said there were only three professional Historians before the war, I don’t think she named them and I never checked it out, but after the war’ American History’ became ‘cool’.
    Even if her statement was technically wrong and there were really five or seven or a hundred her point was valid.
    The war ended Americas adolescences.
    The Declaration of Independence we would take our place among the nations of the world, and the in the post war we did.
     
    Carbon 6 likes this.
  3. Nov 19, 2019 #2863

    Alej

    Alej

    Alej

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    7
    Is "anarchy" how you describe the 10th Amendment ?
     
    tenngun likes this.
  4. Nov 19, 2019 #2864

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    69 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,353
    Likes Received:
    1,267
    Depends in what you mean. If you are suggesting that a 10th amendment defense of the 1850 fugitive slave act ignored other clauses in the constitution and created both anarchy and tyranny that ultimately ignored the tenth amendment and states rights leading to the civil war and passage of the 13th and 14th amendments .
    Then yes.
     
  5. Nov 19, 2019 #2865

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,892
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Republic mo
    As slavery has existed since and even before the advent of civilization, so to has the struggle of government.
    Does the government exist to serve and defend it’s citizens who are supreme, or are people subjects of a government looking out for the greater good, and the final arbiter of what means that greater good.
    The tenth amendment said government was the civil servant of the people,
    The WTBS said it was the civil master.
    Democracy? See my gun it is for me you shall vote
     
  6. Nov 19, 2019 #2866

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    69 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,353
    Likes Received:
    1,267
    Has it ever existed like it did during the civil war era ?
     
  7. Nov 19, 2019 #2867

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,892
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Republic mo
    In Egypt India China Greece Rome Viking Scandinavia mesoamericans ,pacific north west. Slaves of one racial group like Black Africans in all of Spanish French Portuguese Dutch and English holdings in America, though the English and Portuguese tended to keep them in better conditions then the rest.
    But while America focused on a racially difference for slaves using blacks much of the world concentrated on cultures differences. The Arab world preferred African slaves for eunuchs and concubines. Persia had a thing for Europeans and went nuts for Scandinavian when they could get them. In India fairer skinned Aryan peoples preferred darker skinned southern Indian ‘native peoples’.
    Our word slave is remembered from Latin.
    The Latin word for slave ‘Serv’ but toward the end of the western empire so many Slavic people became slaves in the Roman Empire that Slav and slave became synonymous.
    And slave was slave. The property of the owner who could be killed sold worked to death and the children of a slave also became the property of the owner who could sell them at will or will them to the owners children as needed.
    In the Muslim world a good Muslim could not hold another Muslim as slave, although a good shite could and did hold Sunni.
    They much preferred European Christians as most would not consent to change their faith.
     
  8. Nov 19, 2019 #2868

    Alej

    Alej

    Alej

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    7
    The 10th Amendment is an addendum to the United States Constitution and exists within the Bill of Rights. Its exact language states that “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

    The Enumerated Powers , given by the States ( "state" = "country," e.g., "the State of Israel") to the central government for the coordination of ADMINISTRATIVE functions beneficial to all citizens of the united states, do not include mandatory imprisonment or seizure of the various states, nor do they provide for invasion of same for the purposes of retaining tax/tariff income. Is BREXIT an example of "anarchy? " Same same.

    "Enumerated powers are specific powers granted to Congress by the United States Constitution. The framers of the Constitution wanted to ensure the new federal government would not become an overreaching entity that might subject the people to the oppression from which they had fled."
    https://www.google.com/search?q=enu....69i57j0l7.13299j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
     
    tenngun likes this.
  9. Nov 20, 2019 #2869

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    69 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,353
    Likes Received:
    1,267
    Brexit has nothing to do our constitution, slavery, the civil war, or this conversation.
    It's a completely different situation.
     
  10. Nov 20, 2019 #2870

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    69 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,353
    Likes Received:
    1,267

    So, in other words the answer to my question is no ?
    Slavery and tyranny go hand in hand, slavery cannot exist in a free society.
     
  11. Nov 20, 2019 #2871

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,892
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Republic mo
    Not the question you asked, the answer to the question you ask was yes it existed like it did in other places and across time as it existed in America.
    Now to that second question as to can it exist in a free society, that’s a philosophical question. The people of Athens or Rome or Scandinavia considered them selves to be free societies as did the people of Great Britain and the Netherlands, while they practiced slavery.
     
  12. Nov 20, 2019 #2872

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    69 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,353
    Likes Received:
    1,267
    I disagree. No other society that I can think of, created a system of economic and race based slavery existing from birth to death and attempted to create a nation based on that peculiar institution of slavery. No other society revolved completely around slavery, and existed because of it.
    The confederacy could not exist without slavery.

    If I recall correctly, all of those places outlawed slavery before we did and remain so today.

    As i said, "slavery cannot exist in a free society" it can only exist in tyranny.
     
  13. Nov 20, 2019 #2873

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,892
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Republic mo
    So how exactly were they different then the Caribbean islands. 80% of blacks transported out of Africa to the Americas went some place other then The United States. The sugar indigo and rice and logwood trade was built on slavery no different then that practiced in the south.
    In terms of historic lengths of time slavery ended in the Caribbean just moments before in the south, and was ended over a time frame so as to not cause economic hardship on the owners. Slavery as practiced in the south would continue to be practiced in South America.
    Yes the above societies mentioned did end slavery, again without causing economic hardship on the owners. In Greece and Italy slaves became peons and serfs, not much of a difference.
    Blacks as slaves were an economic export of Africa long before Columbus would make his voyage. White west Europeans were also victim of of slavery raids to be sold into the markets of North Africa, and for the same reason. Should they escape it was near impossible for them to blend in with background of society.
    When it comes to a race of most horrors of slavery perpetuated by a society the south, infact all slavery in the United States would be an ‘also ran’.
     
  14. Nov 20, 2019 #2874

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    69 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,353
    Likes Received:
    1,267
    Still defending slavery ?
    History shows us that wherever slavery exists, people will eventually abolish it.
    Slavery is like crime, or vice, like a virus.

    The south caused their own economic hardship, two ways.
    1. They became over dependent on slavery, it was unsustainable.

    2. They did not account for the economic toll of defending slavery.
     
  15. Nov 20, 2019 #2875

    tenngun

    tenngun

    tenngun

    Cannon

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    10,892
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Republic mo
    Not defending, acknowledging it was the way of the world.
    As to causing there own economic hardship, that’s an unsupportable argument. The south responded to an economic need created by other people.
    A monster was willing to kill near a million people in order to force a government on to the south they didn’t want.
     
    SamTex1949 likes this.
  16. Nov 20, 2019 #2876

    Alej

    Alej

    Alej

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    7
    Does the European UNION ring a bell ?

    I find the most obtuse people north of the Mason-Dixon Line. BTW, look up the definition of "civil war." An internal group trying to take over their country's government. The southern states (countries) simply wanted to be left alone by a central government's meddling in excess of its Enumerated Powers. Try "War of Northern Aggression," since all but one major battle was fought on Southern soil.
     
    Eutycus and tenngun like this.
  17. Nov 20, 2019 #2877

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    69 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,353
    Likes Received:
    1,267
    That "monster" was Jefferson Davis .
     
  18. Nov 20, 2019 #2878

    Alej

    Alej

    Alej

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    7
    Davis' crew didn't invade anyone, cupcake.
     
  19. Nov 20, 2019 #2879

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    Carbon 6

    69 Cal.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2018
    Messages:
    3,353
    Likes Received:
    1,267
    Yep, it rings this bell.
    Since the UN was formed the European countries in it have enjoyed 74 years of peace with each other. The longest period of peace in recorded history.
     
  20. Nov 20, 2019 #2880

    Alej

    Alej

    Alej

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    7
    Thanks entirely to American money and military oversight. Not that that has anything to do with the subject at hand.

    I wrote "EUROPEAN UNION," cupcake. Recent public school graduate ?
     

Share This Page



arrow_white