The War Between The States Discussions

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Carbon 6

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Carbon6, I do strongly feel that it is an appropriate topic for a Forum entitled "The War Between the States".
No one has told me that you are a moderator, and I stand by my questions for this Forum. Much better to talk about the weapons used, and how they came to be, than the current situation politically, and how the Civil War is affecting that.
If the moderator tells me that it is an inappropriate place, I shall quite happily move the questions that obviously "offend" you.
Pardon me, and welcome I see that you are new and I was trying to help you. This discussion is a continuation of a discussion that has gone on for 182 pages. Never has it been a discussion about the weapons. there are numerous weapons related threads that would be more appropriate, rather than interfering with the continuity of this one.

Here are links to some Springfield threads.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/posts/1591274/

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/posts/1594757/

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/the-souths-sharpshooters-and-the-enfield-and-other-rifles.40742/


https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/posts/1604125/

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/posts/1596061/

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/posts/1601756/

A simple search for "Enfield" in the search window will give you some enfield results as well.


I hope this helps.
 

Carbon 6

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Both were wonderful in their performance, for the day and time.
If the civil war taught us anything, it was that the Springfield 1861 and the Enfields were not the pinnacle of gun development during the civil war. The reign of the muzzleoader as a battlefield implement would last only for a few years more. By 1873 they would be officially replaced with the self contained cartridge.
The civil war ended slavery, and it ended muzzleloaders as king of the battlefield.
 

nkbj

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Even before the Declaration of Independence, slavery had already become one of the most important domestic political issues and would remain that way up until the end of the civil war and the passage of the post war Amendments.
After all, Jefferson was the champion of states rights and even he believed that the nation might eventually go to war to bring an end to it.
Since you don't seem to agree then please let us know what you think caused the civil war.


Jefferson wrote:

"In a sense we have come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."


In fact, Jefferson's first draft of the Declaration did recognize the issue of slavery. In it, he stated that King George had "waged cruel War against Nature itself, violating its most sacred Rights of Life and Liberty in the Persons of a distant People who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into Slavery in another Hemisphere, or to incur miserable Death, in their Transportation thither." Why were this and subsequent passages on slavery removed?

Those who drafted the Declaration believed that it was better to remove the section dealing with slavery than risk a long debate over the issue of slavery. They needed the support for independence from the southern states. The clause itself was stricken out at the request of delegates from South Carolina, and Georgia, but with the agreement of New England states. The delegates recognized that the Declaration was going to result in war with England and that if the colonies were not united, they would not prevail. It was too big an issue for thirteen separate and independent colonies to tackle before they had even formed a country or won independence from England.

At the same time, the Founders knew that eventually slavery had to be ended.

On many occasions, the Founders spoke and wrote statements showing they wanted slavery abolished gradually. That way, they could keep the new country intact while doing so. Yet, not doing anything about slavery was postponing a day of reckoning. The Founders knew that not taking any action would ultimately put the country in grave danger.


Thomas Jefferson, the most difficult of the founders to comprehend, twice tried to bring emancipation, yet he also held slaves until his death. His words here reveal his inner conflict about the issue:

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest."
--->>> http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/lessonplan/slavery.html

Also see: --->>> https://www.monticello.org/slavery-at-monticello/liberty-slavery
I tremble for my country now for the same reason.
How much more do you want to argue over slavery?
 

Carbon 6

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I tremble for my country now for the same reason.
Not me.
Jefferson trembled because he knew that slavery was wrong, and that he kept slaves.
Jefferson's fear came from a guilty conscience, and the thought of being judged.
I can only imagine that the day slavery ended, he was at finally at peace.

Many slave owners regretted owning slaves, but they were rich. The only thing a rich man fears more than being judged, is being poor.
 

nkbj

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Why cannot people consumed with that dividing of the USA recognize who and what created it? Afraid to see?

Those people got duped. Sucked in. They marched off as a bunch of zombied idiots to kill each other and all the while going yippie hooray like going to a stuperbowel football game. And they never once whacked who needed it.
 

Carbon 6

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Why cannot people consumed with that dividing of the USA recognize who and what created it? Afraid to see?
Can you see the egg in a cake ? the salt? the water? the vanilla? A trumpet makes noise but an orchestra makes music. No, things are never as simple as we want them to be.
 

tenngun

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If that were true, how did they lose ?
Out numbered, and lacking manufacturing to fight the first modern war, too broad of a frontier to defend, no navy so inability to defend the coast, the decision to ‘not surrender one foot of sacred southern soil’ so resources squandered defending areas randomly instead of concentrating forces, many generals unable to grapple with new tactics ( even Lee suffered with the idea of not leaving the enemy in control of the battlefield).
 

Carbon 6

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and lacking manufacturing to fight the first modern war, too broad of a frontier to defend, no navy so inability to defend the coast, the decision to ‘not surrender one foot of sacred southern soil’ so resources squandered defending areas randomly instead of concentrating forces, many generals unable to grapple with new tactics ( even Lee suffered with the idea of not leaving the enemy in control of the battlefield).
It was a war of ideals as much as anything, and the better ones won.
Even if the South had prevailed, another war would have started soon after.

( even Lee suffered with the idea of not leaving the enemy in control of the battlefield)
Lee also suffered over the issue of slavery, secession and the war in general.
Lee said;

“When I measure my own by that standard I am filled with confusion and despair. that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country."

He also said;

"Madam, don't bring up your sons to detest the United States government. Recollect that we form one country now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans."
Advice to a Confederate widow who expressed animosity towards the northern U.S. after the end of the American Civil War, as quoted in The Life and Campaigns of General Lee (1875) by Edward Lee Childe, p. 331.

And he said;

"You see what a poor sinner I am, and how unworthy to possess what was given me; for that reason, it has been taken away."
Letter to his daughter after losing Arlington (25 December 1861)
 

arcticap

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Still arguing over slavery while the purposes behind the creation of the schism and conflict are ignored.
Go for it! :thumb:

A book for those with wide comfort zones:

To The Victor Go The Myths & Monuments : the history of the first 100 years of the war against God and the Constitution, 1776-1876, and its modern impact.
"The purposes behind the schism and conflict are ignored" ????
What proposes?
I'm at a loss of understanding the meaning that's trying to be conveyed.
I can't read your mind as to what you mean.


Why cannot people consumed with that dividing of the USA recognize who and what created it? Afraid to see?

Those people got duped. Sucked in. They marched off as a bunch of zombied idiots to kill each other and all the while going yippie hooray like going to a stuperbowel football game. And they never once whacked who needed it.

"And they never once whacked who needed it."
Who needed to get whacked and why, and why didn't anyone try?
Which side of the civil war were they on?
Is everyone afraid to see or is someone afraid to write what they actually mean to say?


I tremble for my country now for the same reason.
How much more do you want to argue over slavery?

Since you don't seem to agree that slavery was the root cause of the civil war or with Jefferson, then please tell us what you think caused the civil war?
 
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tenngun

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It was a war of ideals as much as anything, and the better ones won.
Even if the South had prevailed, another war would have started soon after.


Lee also suffered over the issue of slavery, secession and the war in general.
Lee said;

“When I measure my own by that standard I am filled with confusion and despair. that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country."

He also said;

"Madam, don't bring up your sons to detest the United States government. Recollect that we form one country now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans."
Advice to a Confederate widow who expressed animosity towards the northern U.S. after the end of the American Civil War, as quoted in The Life and Campaigns of General Lee (1875) by Edward Lee Childe, p. 331.

And he said;

"You see what a poor sinner I am, and how unworthy to possess what was given me; for that reason, it has been taken away."
Letter to his daughter after losing Arlington (25 December 1861)
Lee did not want war, and when it was over he wanted only peace and unity
He fought because he felt his first loyalty was to Virginia.
Like so many slave owners( Jefferson and Washington included) he was trapped by the amount of personal wealth tied up in his property. One might happily risk their life for a cause ,but by God keep safe thy wallet.
 

arcticap

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Jefferson wrote:
"In a sense we have come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
--->>> http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/lessonplan/slavery.html
CORRECTION - THIS PASSAGE WAS WRITTEN BY MARTIN LUTHUR KING IN HIS "I HAD A DREAM SPEECH" AND NOT THOMAS JEFFERSON.
I BELIEVE THAT KING WAS PARAPHRASING LINCOLN'S INTERPRETATION OF THE DECLARATION AS HAS BEEN NOTED PREVIOUSLY.
MEA CULPA.
 

arcticap

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Lee did not want war, and when it was over he wanted only peace and unity
He fought because he felt his first loyalty was to Virginia.
Like so many slave owners( Jefferson and Washington included) he was trapped by the amount of personal wealth tied up in his property. One might happily risk their life for a cause ,but by God keep safe thy wallet.
This Wiki Section "Late 1850s: Arlington plantation and the Custis slaves" explains Lee's financial crises after his father-in-law died in 1857.
The Custis plantations were losing money and the slaves didn't want to work for Lee for another 5 years as the father-in-law's will stipulated.
The slaves wanted immediate freedom.
Lee had to take 2 years off from military duty to deal with the crises. --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee#Late_1850s:_Arlington_plantation_and_the_Custis_slaves
 

Carbon 6

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Lee did not want war, and when it was over he wanted only peace and unity
He fought because he felt his first loyalty was to Virginia.
Like so many slave owners( Jefferson and Washington included) he was trapped by the amount of personal wealth tied up in his property. One might happily risk their life for a cause ,but by God keep safe thy wallet.
I agree.
 

nkbj

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Not me.
Jefferson trembled because he knew that slavery was wrong, and that he kept slaves.
Jefferson's fear came from a guilty conscience, and the thought of being judged.
I can only imagine that the day slavery ended, he was at finally at peace.

Many slave owners regretted owning slaves, but they were rich. The only thing a rich man fears more than being judged, is being poor.
Speaks for itself; consumed.
Can you see the egg in a cake ? the salt? the water? the vanilla? A trumpet makes noise but an orchestra makes music. No, things are never as simple as we want them to be.
Nonsense.
 

Carbon 6

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Nonsense.
Jabberwocky

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”

He took his vorpal sword in hand;
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!”
He chortled in his joy.

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.


Published in 1871 in case anybody wondered.
 
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tenngun

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The minority is always outnumbered.
Robert Heinlein said in his notebooks of Lazarus long : Does history record one instance when the majority was ever right?
Adams estimated 1/3 of our population supported the revolution Howard Zinn thought it was as little as 10%. I think Zinn was wrong, way too low, but Adams may have been a might generous.
A tyranny of the majority is still a tyranny.
 
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