The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Oct 30, 2019 #2581

    arcticap

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    Were you an admirer of Chairman Mao or Fidel Castro?
    Why would you advocate such a communistic practice in the USA?
    Was there an American precedent to redistribute private land for free from the rich to the poor?

    It wasn't only the northern people making money, it was the entire Union.
    The south needed to pay their fair share of the Union war debt, right?
    And since black people benefited from the results of the war too why couldn't they also help to efficiently grow the much needed plantation cotton?


    I'll bet that the land grants were not private lands that were confiscated from rich people.
    That's unAmerican and unconstitutional don't you think?
    That's why there's no justification to take what you are saying over and over very seriously.
    Why should black soldiers get preference over white soldiers?
    Is that your idea of some kind of affirmative action?
    It was tough enough to pass the post war amendments giving blacks citizenship and the vote, and now you think that they should be given preferential treatment?
    I understand that this must be your idea of tongue-in-cheek right?

    Public land grants do not equate to the redistribution of private property.
    That's why the land grants were in the west.
    Comparing public land grants to private land redistribution is like comparing apples to oranges.

     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
  2. Oct 30, 2019 #2582

    Artificer

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    Wow, that's a WHOLE BUNCH of excuses on why the North didn't take care of Ex-Slave Black Soldiers from the South.

    Redistribution of private property? I guess you didn't see my follow on post about how the Federal Government did that to Native Americans INCLUDING those who had become citizens?

    If the Northern Government worried at all about whether it would be legal or not to give the plantation lands to the former slaves, they simply could have foreclosed on the Plantation owners for not paying taxes. Oh, they actually DID THAT AS WELL when it was in their best interest. So much for that excuse.

    Preference over White Soldiers? How many White Soldiers were former slaves and TURNED THE TIDE OF WAR for the North by fighting against their States? How many White U.S. Soldiers had to return to U.S. Army/Federal Forces devastated farms in their States? Sounds like nothing more than another excuse.

    Gus
     
  3. Oct 30, 2019 #2583

    Artificer

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    Oh, and as to the South paying their fair share of taxes for the expenses of the War, the Former Slave Ex-Black Soldiers would have paid more in Federal Taxes had they been given land in the South.

    Gus
     
  4. Oct 30, 2019 #2584

    arcticap

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    That's doubtful since the income tax had become progressive after the first year of 1861
    That is if your criticism disguised as a dream plan occurred before 1871 or 1872.

    You may already know that Lincoln signed the Homestead Act on May 20, 1862 that allowed people to get 160 acres of free and/or nearly free land in Kansas.

    "In 1864, the law was amended to allow a soldier with two years of service to acquire the land after a one year residency.
    The Homestead Act led to the distribution of 80 million acres of public land by 1900." --->>> https://www.kshs.org/kansapedia/homestead-act/15142

    Why would the Federal gov't. give up revenues to give land away for free in the south when there was already too much free land available in Kansas?
    Perhaps you think that the Union didn't have enough war debt that the south already needed to help pay for.
    That plan would have also increased the war tax burden on the south.
    People were growing cotton in Kansas and they still are.
    Let all of the ex-soldiers go to Kansas to get their free land and to grow cotton or whatever else that they want to grow.

    If the plan had any merit then some Federal Representative would have proposed it.
    But I highly doubt that any did.
     
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  5. Oct 30, 2019 #2585

    Carbon 6

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    While looking for pickle recipes for another topic, I came across Abby Fisher. Born in 1831 she was a former slave from South Carolina who earned her living as a pickle manufacturer in San Francisco and published the second known, and is the oldest known cookbook written by a former slave in the United States, ( What Mrs. Fisher knows about old southern cooking, soups, pickles, preserves, etc. ..) Pretty good cook book too.

    Little is known of Fisher’s life after the publication of her cookbook. In 1984, just over one century after its initial appearance, a volume of the cookbook was rediscovered and put up for auction at Sotheby’s in New York. The cookbook was acquired by the Arthur and Elizabeth Schlesinger Library on the Harvard University campus. In 1985 Applewood Books reprinted What Mrs. Fisher Knows About Old Southern Cooking, Soups, Pickles, Preserves, Etc., making her recipes available to a new generation of chefs and cooks.
     
  6. Oct 30, 2019 #2586

    Artificer

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    First of all, Federal Taxes were paid by the States, except during the War in that an additional Federal individual income tax was paid by those making more than $ 600.00. IOW, the States collected their taxes and paid taxes according to their population, as set forth in the Constitution. During War Time, the Federal Government added a larger tax on those who could afford to pay it. Black Ex-Soldiers in the South who did not make $ 600.00 were taxed just the same as anyone who did not make that much money in the North - though their States were still required to pay their share of the Federal Taxes.

    I'm wondering if you are using the Kansas Land Grant example as tongue in cheek? Or is it possible you have not fully considered the ramifications of what you wrote?

    Ex- Soldiers in the North could travel through safe territory for almost their entire trip to Kansas, IF they could afford to go that far and many could not without financial assistance from their families.


    Black Ex-Soldiers and their families, by your own earlier intention of mentioning the KKK, had to travel through hostile country for most of their trip, especially those whose families were from Southeastern States like Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, etc. These Soldiers had virtually no financial assistance from their families to pay for travel, because their families had been slaves.

    This is why I mentioned earlier that it was economically not possible for the Ex-Black Soldiers from the South to take their families that far west, along with the danger they would have faced compared to the safety White Soldiers in the North didn't have to worry about.

    For most of the Black Ex-Soldiers from the South, Kansas could have been on the moon for all the good free land did them there.

    Gus


     
  7. Oct 30, 2019 #2587

    arcticap

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    It seems that there was quite a large exodus of blacks from the south to Kansas by those who were known as Exodusters.
    It seems that at least for some blacks, it was more dangerous to stay in the south than to leave.

    Here's excerpts:

    Exodusters was a name given to African Americans who migrated from states along the Mississippi River to Kansas in the late nineteenth century, as part of the Exoduster Movement or Exodus of 1879

    The movement received substantial organizational support from prominent figures, Benjamin Singleton of Tennessee and Henry Adams of Louisiana. As many as forty thousand Exodusters left the South to settle in Kansas, Oklahoma and Colorado

    The number one cause of black migration out of the South at this time was to escape racial violence or "bulldozing" by white supremacist groups such as the Ku Klux Klan and the White League, as well as widespread repression under the Black Codes, discriminatory laws that rendered blacks second-class citizens after Reconstruction.[4] Vigilantes operated with almost total impunity, and no other issue was of more importance to the majority of southern blacks living in the countryside. Given the extreme level of discrimination and violent intimidation blacks faced in the rural South, the Exodusters can more accurately be described as refugees

    Most black migration, including the Exodus of 1879, was spurred on by the dire economic prospects of black labor in the rural South. The depression of the 1870s served to exacerbate the racist policies of white merchants and planters, who sought to offset their agricultural losses by increasing prices and interest rates for blacks

    Before the Exodus of 1879 to Kansas, southern blacks convened to discuss the option of emigration both formally and informally.[13] Delegates from Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Arkansas, and Georgia met at a New Orleans conference in 1875 and discussed black emigration to western territories and Liberia

    The Exodus of 1879 consisted mostly of refugees fleeing Mississippi and Louisiana between March and May and Texas later in the year.[21] There was considerable uncertainty at the time as to the actual number of Exodusters that arrived in St. Louis. However, the Colored Relief Board estimated that about 20,000 Exodusters reached the city between 1879 and 1880; the St. Louis Globe-Democrat quoted 6,206 arriving between March and April 1879 alone

    Although the Exodus of 1879 saw a high volume of black migration during a shorter period of time, most of the black migration to Kansas occurred steadily throughout the decade. The black population of Kansas increased by some 26,000 people during the 1870s.[34] Historian Nell Painter further asserts that “the sustained migration of some 9,500 Blacks from Tennessee and Kentucky to Kansas during the decade far exceeded the much publicized migration of 1879, which netted no more than about 4,000 people from Louisiana.”[35] During the 1870s and the decade that followed, blacks bought more than 20,000 acres (81 km2) of land in Kansas, and several of the settlements established during this time (e.g., Nicodemus, Kansas, which was founded in 1877) still exist today.

    Of note, however, western migration of African-Americans was not limited to the Exoduster period, and places like Quindaro, Kansas, thrived for some period before, during, and after the Exoduster movement.[citation needed] Similarly, in the early 20th century, black migrations to the American West and Southwest would continue, and several additional all-black towns would be established, especially in Indian Territory, which would become the state of Oklahoma.--->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodusters

    Following the Civil War, African Americans began to move from the South to seek better lives. Promoters encouraged black families to move to Graham County in western Kansas. By the summer of 1877, prior to the African American "exoduster" movement, 300 blacks established a new town called Nicodemus. Several African American settlements were established in other parts of the state.--->>> https://www.kshs.org/kansapedia/settlement-in-kansas/14546
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
  8. Oct 31, 2019 #2588

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    Your bringing up of the Exoduster movement is making my points for me. Thank you.

    First this was 9 YEARS after the end of the UnCivil War and by that time, some Ex-Slaves were able to save up the money to leave the South and of course they got outside financial assistance you mentioned.

    Further the Former Slaves were from LA and MS, which was much, MUCH closer to Kansas than other States in the Old Confederacy.

    Though I agree the numbers of Exodusters were not insignificant, they were a drop in the bucket compared to Former Slaves throughout the South and North. No more than 1 1/4 percent, if that much.

    Gus
     
  9. Oct 31, 2019 #2589

    arcticap

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    You did say that it was too expensive and dangerous for them to travel west to where the free land was.
    Yet despite that, there was a significant migration of blacks throughout the decade of the 1870's and probably beyond.
    Just because they mostly came from the Mississippi River border states at that time doesn't negate the fact that many blacks went to where the free land was available in Kansas.
    And some blacks traveled even farther to the southwest and Oklahoma.
    It proves that going to Kansas was feasible for many who did and probably many more who didn't which was the opposite of what you asserted.
    And it shows that the Union not providing affirmative action land in the south to black ex-soldiers was not "especially egregious." since everyone was offered free land in Kansas.


    Yes, the exodusters may have only represented a drop in the bucket of the total black population.
    But we can assume that many more migrated north or to other states, or territories or even within the south where they felt more comfortable such as in cities where there was more safety in numbers.
    The exoduster article did mention how in some places where many blacks left, there was a scarcity of labor which affected contract prices.

    "....the Exoduster migration seems to have had some impact on labor relations between southern black farm workers and their white employers. Temporary benefits accorded to counties with the highest black labor scarcity included better price terms in leasing contracts and shrinking long-term contract commitments." --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodusters#Impact_of_the_Exodusters

    Perhaps not every black person wanted to become a farmer, or live in a rural area or even wanted to own land, or they were stuck working under the black codes.
    For whatever reasons, black people either moved or waited for social conditions to improve.
    Or they found a place where they were relatively happy and lived among themselves in black communities.
    At some point the south gravitated towards segregated living conditions.
    Most anyone who has been to the south can still see that as plain as day with towns having a distinct black section and white section which admittedly persists all across the US.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  10. Oct 31, 2019 #2590

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    The information you provided does not prove Freed Slaves from Florida, Georgia, North Carolina etc. could travel to Kansas and especially not without assistance your information mentioned that Freed Slaves much, MUCH closer to Kansas received.

    Actually, the Freed Slaves you mentioned did not have anywhere near the distance to travel through hostile territory than Freed Slaves in States I actually mentioned. A historically realistic and factual point that seems to have escaped you.

    Gus
     
  11. Oct 31, 2019 #2591

    Carbon 6

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    I've been quiet because I can't figure out exactly what it is you are attempting to argue or why.
    Is there a direction to this line of argument or did i just miss something ?
    What is your point ? I't's like you are arguing around the bush.
    Are you just arguing to argue ?
     
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  12. Oct 31, 2019 #2592

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    I have no intention of taking the time to summarize the last few pages for you. My latest response was in reply to Articap and he seems to not have any problem following the discussion.

    If you are lost and truly interested, then I suggest going back over the last five pages and that should bring you up to date.

    Gus
     
  13. Oct 31, 2019 #2593

    arcticap

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    Look at how many slaves escaped to the north and then Canada by the underground railroad while they were being hunted down by the authorities.
    Here it is after the war and emancipation with free blacks living all over the place who could offer assistance.
    No one could deny that it would be much easier to travel and relocate after the war than it was before the war.
    And blacks also seemed to have local organizations and small communities all over the place.
    If delegates could travel to Louisiana for a convention from states across the south then they could find a way to travel to where they wanted to go.

    "Delegates from Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Arkansas, and Georgia met at a New Orleans conference in 1875 and discussed black emigration to western territories and Liberia"








     
  14. Oct 31, 2019 #2594

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    This was 10 years after the War ended and I don't doubt that by that time, groups could pool resources to go to a conference.


    Yet, going back and forth to a conference 10 years after the war ended was an entirely different matter than Freed Slave families not having the funds and safety to be able to pack up, have food and other needed supplies to go to Kansas and survive there, when the War ended.

    The simple and abysmal truth is that it wasn't important enough to the North to give Black Former U.S. Soldiers from the South their just due for turning the tide of war for the North or because of greed, to break up the plantations and give small farms to the freed slaves.

    Gus
     
  15. Oct 31, 2019 #2595

    arcticap

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    Considering how the southern states were able to invent the black codes and legal obstacles to blacks voting and their being allowed to live with liberty and in peace, what would have stopped the southern states from coming up with legal ways to confiscate any properties that were owned by blacks?

    And if the states themselves didn't invent ways to take their property away, what would have stopped the KKK from running blacks off their free property for the purpose of turning it into white owned property?

    I think that it has already been shown that blacks were discriminated against when it came to obtaining loans and also paid higher prices for doing business transactions with white business owners
    So it wouldn't be hard to believe that any free property that would be given to free blacks would eventually end up in the hands of whites.
    That has also been documented to have occurred in real life by modern black families whose ancestors once owned farm property in the south and ended up losing it because they couldn't afford to keep it.
    Congress would have realized that giving away free property would probably lead to that.

    I think that it's been shown in so many different ways that ideologically, politically and in reality that any such proposal wouldn't be worthwhile, could be wasteful, and also potentially harmful to both blacks and the national interest.
    Imagine if the gov't. only gave away free land to whites.

    There were black Federal office holders, did any of them propose it?

    "Blacks were a majority of the population in many congressional districts across the South. In 1870, Joseph Rainey of South Carolina was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives, becoming the first directly elected black member of Congress to be seated.[2] Blacks were elected to national office also from Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, Texas and Virginia."--->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans_in_the_United_States_Congress


     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  16. Oct 31, 2019 #2596

    Carbon 6

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    There were many groups from the north that helped blacks.

    The Freedmen’s Aid Society was founded in 1861 during the American Civil War by the American Missionary Association (AMA), a group supported chiefly by the Congregational, Presbyterian and Methodist churches in the North. It organized a supply of teachers from the North and provided housing for them, to set up and teach in schools in the South for freedmen and their children. The AMA founded a total of more than 500 schools and colleges for freedmen in the South after the war, so that freedmen could be educated as teachers, nurses and other professionals.

    The Freedmen’s Bureau, formally known as the Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen and Abandoned Lands, was established in 1865 by Congress to help millions of former black slaves and poor whites in the South in the aftermath of the Civil War. The Freedmen’s Bureau provided food, housing and medical aid, established schools and offered legal assistance. It also attempted to settle former slaves on land confiscated or abandoned during the war. However, the bureau was prevented from fully carrying out its programs due to a shortage of funds and personnel, along with the politics of race and Reconstruction.

    The Freedmen’s Bureau was established by an act of Congress on March 3, 1865, two months before Confederate General Robert E. Lee surrendered.

    What I can't find are, white southern organizations that helped blacks after the war. I'm sure there was one or two though.
     
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  17. Oct 31, 2019 #2597

    Carbon 6

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    Makes me wonder how so many slaves managed to escape the south and go north during the war.
     
  18. Oct 31, 2019 #2598

    Carbon 6

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    One of the biggest economic problems facing blacks after the war, was a lack of education.
    The south had made education and reading illegal for blacks.
    Many northern states adopted compulsory education after the war, (some before) But the core Confederate states wouldn't make compulsory education mandatory until the 20th century.

    I remember reading of slaves who escaped to the north by forging papers. Now there forgeries weren't that great, but the white southerners on road patrol could barely read if at all, so the blacks were allowed to pass because the whites couln't read and thought the black couldn't read or write either.

    Got to love that story regardless if you are Northerner or Southerner. :D
     
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  19. Nov 1, 2019 #2599

    arcticap

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    Benjamin "Pap" Singleton (1809 – February 17, 1900) was an American activist and businessman best known for his role in establishing African American settlements in Kansas.....Singleton returned to Tennessee during the Union occupation in 1862, but soon concluded that blacks would never achieve economic equality in the white-dominated South.....he became involved in promoting and coordinating black-owned businesses in Kansas

    In the summer of 1877, Singleton led approximately seventy-three black settlers to Cherokee County near the town of Baxter Springs
    He searched for government land which his settlers could acquire through the 1862 Homestead Act.
    The following year they officially established the Dunlap Colony.[2] More than 2400 settlers emigrated from the Nashville and Sumner County areas.[1] Most settlers lived in dugouts during their first year on the Great Plains. They stuck it out and made the colony a success.

    Exodusters, 1879–80
    By 1879 of the "Great Exodus", 50,000 freedmen known as Exodusters had migrated from the South....They migrated to Kansas, Missouri, Indiana and Illinois seeking land, better working conditions, and the chance to live in peace. Part of Topeka, Kansas, was known as "Tennessee Town" because of many migrants from that state.
    In 1880 Singleton was requested to appear before the United States Senate in Washington, D.C., to testify on the causes of the Great Exodus to Kansas. Singleton rebuffed the efforts of southern Senators to discredit the Exodus Movement. He testified to his own success in setting up independent black colonies and noted the terrible conditions which caused freedmen to leave the South. Singleton returned to Kansas as a nationally recognized spokesman for the Exodusters. But the migration of so many poor blacks put more of a financial burden on the Dunlap Colony than the original settlers could bear. By 1880, the Presbyterian Church had taken charitable control of the settlement; it planned to build a Freedmen's Academy in the town. Singleton had no more dealings with his colony at Dunlap.
    Copy and paste:--->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_"Pap"_Singleton
     
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  20. Nov 1, 2019 #2600

    arcticap

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    HENRY ADAMS [LOUISIANA] (1843-?)

    In 1870 Adams organized black Louisiana veterans in the Shreveport area into a group known as “the Committee.” Numbering about 500 men — including 150 who traveled across northwest Louisiana working with Republican politicians and encouraged black men to vote — the Committee worked for full political rights for African Americans. Adams lost jobs because of his involvment with the organization but he continued to press for political reforms.

    In the summer of 1874, the Louisiana Governor William Pitt Kellogg, a Republican, and the Committee made a request for federal troops to intervene in areas of northwest Louisiana where the White League, a terrorist organization, had taken control. President Ulysses S. Grant responded by sending the U.S. Seventh Cavalry to Shreveport. While the Seventh Cavalry operated in Shreveport, Adams gained employment as an undercover scout in 1875....
    ....In the Spring of 1879 the Kansas Exodus swept across Louisiana and Mississippi. Adams quickly shifted the focus of the Colonization Council to Kansas and encouraged blacks to migrate there. Adams never visted Kansas. However, in 1880 he traveled to Washington, D.C. to give testimony before a U.S. Senate Committee on the migration and continuing emigration sentiment, both of which he blamed on anti-black terror in the South.
    Henry Adams dropped out of sight in 1884. The efforts of Adams and the Colonization Council were not unrewarded. Over the next three decades, more than 11,000 southern blacks settled in Liberia. It is unclear if Henry Adams was among them.
    --->>> https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/adams-henry-1843/

    [Excerpts of] Testimony of Henry Adams regarding the Negro Exodus

    Question:
    Do you remember any of these reports that you get from members of your committee?

    Henry Adams:
    Yes, sir; they said in several parts where they was that the land rent was still higher there in that part of the country than it was where we first organized it, and the people was still being whipped, some of them, by the old owners, the men that had owned them as slaves, and some of them was being cheated out of their crops just the same as they was there.

    Question:
    Was anything said about their personal and political rights in these reports, as to how they were treated about these?

    Henry Adams:
    Yes, some of them stated that in some parts of the country where they voted they would be shot. Some of them stated that if they voted the Democratic ticket they would not be injured.

    Question:
    But that they would be shot, or might be shot, if they voted the Republican ticket?

    Henry Adams:
    Yes, sir.

    Question:
    State what was the general character of these reports—I have not yet got down to your organization of 1874—whether what you have given was the general character; were there some safer places found that seemed a little better?

    Henry Adams:
    Some of the places, of course, were a little better than others. Some men that owned some of the plantations would treat the people pretty well in some parts. We found that they would try to pay what they had promised from time to time; some they didn’t pay near what they had promised; and in some places the families—some families—would make from five to a hundred bales of cotton to the family; then at the end of the year they would pay the owner of the land out of that amount at the end of the year, maybe one hundred dollars. Cotton was selling then at twenty-five cents a pound, and at the end of the year when they came to settle up with the owner of the land, they would not get a dollar sometimes, and sometimes they would get thirty dollars, and sometimes a hundred dollars out of a hundred bales of cotton.

    Question:
    I am speaking now of the period from 1870 to 1874, and you have given us the general character of the reports that you got from the South; what did you do in 1874?

    Henry Adams:
    Well, along in August sometime in 1874, after the white league sprung up, they organized and said this is a white man’s government, and the colored men should not hold any offices; they were no good but to work in the fields and take what they would give them and vote the Democratic ticket. That’s what they would make public speeches and say to us, and we would hear them. We then organized an organization called the colonization council.

    Question:
    Now, Mr. Adams, you know, probably, more about the causes of the exodus from that country than any other man, from your connection with it; tell us in a few words what you believe to be the causes of these people going away?


    Henry Adams:
    Well, the cause is, in my judgment, and from what information I have received, and what I have seen with my own eyes—it is because the largest majority of the people, of the white people, that held us as slaves treats our people so bad in many respects that it is impossible for them to stand it. Now, in a great many parts of that country there our people most as well be slaves as to be free; because, in the first place, I will state this: that in some times, in times of politics, if they have any idea that the Republicans will carry a parish or ward, or something of that kind, why, they would do anything on God’s earth. There ain’t nothing too mean for them to do to prevent it; nothing I can make mention of is too mean for them to do --->>> https://glc.yale.edu/testimony-henry-adams-regarding-negro-exodus
     
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