The War Between The States Discussions

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Zonie, Jul 19, 2019.

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  1. Oct 22, 2019 #2381

    Carbon 6

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    You will get no argument from on that, I agree with you 100% that your beliefs do nothing to tell us how southern society thought about it.
     
  2. Oct 22, 2019 #2382

    Carbon 6

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    Who are you quoting ?
     
  3. Oct 22, 2019 #2383

    Carbon 6

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    Comparing gun ownership to slavery weakens your argument and diminishes gun owners.
     
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  4. Oct 22, 2019 #2384

    tenngun

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    I wasn’t quoting any one in particular
     
  5. Oct 22, 2019 #2385

    tenngun

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    You seem to have missed something. I’m not comparing gun ownership to slavery. I’m comparing strongly held ideas of rights, to equality strongly held ideas of rights a hundred and sixty years ago, and the fact those holding those views are as unlikely to change those views when exposed to those who would argue they should give up those rights.
     
  6. Oct 22, 2019 #2386

    tenngun

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    Do you have some info that Southern society felt opposed to slavery?
    Not some individuals, that in it self seems rare in the south, but society at large?
    Not what they thought in New England or France, but what was thought in Georgia or Arkansas.
     
  7. Oct 22, 2019 #2387

    Carbon 6

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    To that I say, look at what happened to slavery. those strong "Views" had the effect of hastening the end of slavery altogether.
    If your argument is that no cared about slavery or that it was socially acceptable or that the majority of people just didn't oppose slavery, then realize that when the "views" of slave owners created the opposition that would ultimately end slavery. The harder proponents of slavery pushed, the greater resistance they encountered, until they were eventually overwhelmed.
    The expression of defiance can become an invitation.
     
  8. Oct 22, 2019 #2388

    Carbon 6

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    Yes there is plenty of info. Remember slavery was an institution run by the minority.
    You give me some examples then you will learn, until then you will continue to turn a blind eye. There are lots of examples to choose from.

    Society is made up of individuals, it is also governed by individuals and persuaded by individuals.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  9. Oct 22, 2019 #2389

    Howard Pippin

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    I have really enjoyed the things that you have posted on the Civil War. I'm a very good student of history, have read much of it and yet never did see much on the Civil War. Right now I'm reading a book called "Battle cry of freedom" by James McPherson. Is really quite an eye-opener from what I actually knew before. I had been led to believe that the Civil War was fought for many things besides slavery and the freeing of the slaves was actually just a byproduct of war. I would say that's far from being true, and slavery had a large part to do with the Civil War. To me it justifies the Civil War much more sold than trade or differences of opinion on other things. It is hard to believe the length that the South would go to protect their use of slaves, and the proslavery political party of that time. I had relatives involved in the Civil war and they fought on the Confederate side. There's really no way I can justify that in my own mind today, and yet I refuse to judge any of them. It's just a battle that should never have had to happen and we are still reaping the repercussions of what brought it on.
    Squint
     
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  10. Oct 22, 2019 #2390

    Carbon 6

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    The ideology behind slavery not only kept Blacks "in chains" to do labor, but it also kept whites in the south "chained" mentally and ideologically to support that system (think about how the system was designed). Freeing Blacks from the bonds of slavery also freed whites from the constraints of that ideology. Of course there are some who still follow that ideology today, but they are on the fringe of society.

    It is easy to reconcile the conflict one might have with the choices their ancestors made, when you understand how the ideology of slavery manipulated them.
     
  11. Oct 22, 2019 #2391

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    tenngun said:
    Do you have some info that Southern society felt opposed to slavery?

    Carbon 6 replied; Yes there is plenty of info. Remember slavery was an institution run by the minority.

    My reply to Carbon 6,

    Delaware was never a Southron State and by the 1860 Census had less than 1800 slaves and that was only 1.6 percent of their population.

    Yet Delaware voted against even the 13th Amendment, twice and once after the UnCivil War was over, during the ratification process and did not go Free until after the 13th Amendment was ratified.

    If you are suggesting there was opposition to slavery by the majority in slave holding states, how did that happen?

    Gus
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  12. Oct 22, 2019 #2392

    Carbon 6

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    Thanks, that's a great example of the dynamics of the demographics. It is an interesting topic to explore. I look forward to your explanation.

    Are you referring to all states, states that seceded or are you referring to Delaware ?
    Also why do you disagree with it ?
     
  13. Oct 22, 2019 #2393

    tenngun

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    Yes society is made up of individuals, however right after you said that you made reference in another post to fringe groups.
    America has plenty of vegans and vegetarians but by and large we are a meat eating country
    We approve of meat eating in spite of some fringe groups.
    There are more guns then people, but gun owners are a bit out numbered in this country. However even our most restrictive states are freer then most of the world. We, as a society approving of gun ownership.
    The south approved of slavery. Yes there were individuals that did not, but the south as a society did.
     
  14. Oct 22, 2019 #2394

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    It seems to be your theory that the majority of the population in Southron Slave states was opposed to slavery.

    I would be extremely interested in the historic evidence you wrote of before, that supports that theory. Not individual examples, mind you, because there were some people in each Slave State in the North and South who were opposed to slavery. However, that is not proof the majority of people in the Slave States were opposed to slavery UNLESS possibly you meant to add in the actual Slave Populations. Is that what you meant?

    I used Delaware as an example of a Slave State where the actions of the State do not agree with a theoretical majority who opposed slavery.

    Gus
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  15. Oct 22, 2019 #2395

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    Another example is Virginia where there were majorities of free people in some counties opposed Slavery, as in those counties that were Constitutionally Illegally allowed to be made into the separate State of West Virginia during the War.

    However, by the actions of the Representatives of all of the free people in the State of Virginia, the theory does not hold up.

    Gus
     
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  16. Oct 22, 2019 #2396

    Carbon 6

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    You are looking at meat consumption as if it were an ideology. If you look at it in dollars sold, meat doesn't even make the top ten list of grocery store items sold.
    Leave your beliefs behind and just look at the data. soda is usually #1 on lists and cereal or bread closely follows.
     
  17. Oct 22, 2019 #2397

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    That is not historic evidence that supports your theory the majority of the populations in the Southron Slaves were opposed to slavery. So I ask again for the historic evidence you have?

    Gus
     
  18. Oct 22, 2019 #2398

    Carbon 6

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    Slaves were people. it would be dishonest not to count them.

    Actually it does if you look at the numbers.
    The majority of blacks in Delaware in 1860 were free.( us census 1860)
    The number of slaves in Delaware decreased rapidly from almost 9,000 in 1790 to half that number in 1820. By 1860, the number had decreased to 1,798. The usual explanation given is humanitarianism and religious feeling, abolitionist efforts, and runaways. In reality, Delaware farmers found it cheaper to hire free black labor than to keep slaves. Furthermore, Delaware, the most northern of the slave states, had no great crop of tobacco or cotton to be looked after during all seasons of the year. The land was wearing out, and state law forbade the sale of slaves out of state. Thus, slave owners could not benefit from breeding slaves as in a state like Virginia.

    By 1860, slavery was extinct in Wilmington and disappearing in lower New Castle County. Even in Sussex County, the ratio of free to slave was one to three, but the General Assembly hesitated to take the final step. The Friends of Abolition almost succeeded in 1847, but one vote kept them from success.
    The majority of slaves in Delaware led much better lives than those in southern states.
    The reasons for opposition to slavery, do not diminish the relevance of that opposition.
     
  19. Oct 22, 2019 #2399

    Carbon 6

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    The reverse is also true, that's why I chose that comment of Tenngun's.
    It has no valid relevance.
     
  20. Oct 22, 2019 #2400

    Straekat

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    The Encyclopedia Britannica is wrong calling Delaware is a southern state?

    https://www.britannica.com/place/the-South-region

    "As defined by the U.S. federal government, it includes Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and West Virginia"
     

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