The inefficiences of Flintlocks

[Vaino]

Although I have both caplocks and flintlocks, I prefer flintlocks despite the flintlocks inefficiencies. The following explains the 2 causes of the inefficiencies of a flintlock rifle and the internal ballistics of a flintlock.

The prime is ignited which in turn ignites the main charge through the touch hole. {TH} The powder burns and produces gases which produce a pressure spike which is caused by overcoming the inertia of the PRB. When part of the powder charge and PRB start to move up the bore, gases escape through the TH and these gases continue to escape but at a diminishing rate until the PRB exits the bore. So, the smaller the TH, the less gas escapes.

The other inefficiency is caused by blowby down the grooves due to insufficient sealing by the patch. I don't think blowby can be eliminated w/ any combination of RB dia and patch thickness that is loadable w/ a short starter and RR.

Photos of PRBs just prior to exiting the bore display blowby which varies due to looser or tighter PRB combos.

The above are my explanations for the inefficiencies of the flintlock rifle and I'm open to a discussion that proves or disapproves the above causes and also my explanation of the internal ballistics of a flintlock......Fred

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

The way you have termed it, both matchlock & percussion arms suffer the same efficiencies. The same for the patch fit to the bore (look up Sam Faldala’s & Lyman’s extensive testing on this topic.

And yet matchlock ignition is exponentially faster than a flintlock, I dare say even faster than percussion, and yet matchlocks too have a touchhole. And blowback through the nipple can be readily seen in many a percussion arm.

Net sum for me if I love them all, but prefer matchlocks, then flinters, then them cap guns.

 

[Vaino]

W/ proper spring force on the caplock hammer, little or no gas escapes..... if some does escape, it's nowhere near the amount of gas escaping through a flint TH.

Ignition speed is for another topic and I know nothing about matchlocks....Fred

 

[Loyalist Dave]

if some does escape, it's nowhere near the amount of gas escaping through a flint TH

Not sure of that, as it's more than just spring tension, it's also hammer fit for if the hammer surface doesn't meet the nipple edge exactly square, then there is a gap where that thin copper cap will fail and allow gas to escape.

I've also seen a few caplocks with stout charges blow the hammer back to half-cock. :shocked2:

Further, you might find that the gas loss through the nipple of a rifled musket or a caplock military musket is much closer to that of a civilian sporting flinter due to the massive size of the musket nipple.

That begs another question..., has anybody done photography or slow motion video of the launching of a minie ball or other conical to see if there is blow-by there as well?


LD

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

if some does escape, it's nowhere near the amount of gas escaping through a flint TH

I've also seen a few caplocks with stout charges blow the hammer back to half-cock. :shocked2:

That’s exactly what I was alluding to, but didn’t quite state so succinctly.

In regards to matchlocks, it is said that Austrian/German target shooters stayed with them even when flintlocks were in vogue, as the ignition of matchlocks is far faster. From my own experience the ignition is instantaneous.

 

[Vaino]

The caplocks that I've had and still own, don't have poorly fitting hammer faces and the springs are strong enough to resist the gases pushing back the hammer. The spent cap is a deterrent also to resist the gas pressure.

The Minie Ball in a shallow rifled bbl might be the best bullet to contain the gases because of its expanding skirt.

Another conical that should also be excellent in containing the gases in a shallow grooved bbl is the TC MaxiBall if it performs as designed. The smaller dias are supposed to shorten and push into the large dias from the pressure and expand the large dias into the lands and grooves of the bore. Whether this happens, I have no idea but it sounds logical.....Fred

 

[Rifleman1776]

Another conical that should also be excellent in containing the gases in a shallow grooved bbl is the TC MaxiBall if it performs as designed. The smaller dias are supposed to shorten and push into the large dias from the pressure and expand the large dias into the lands and grooves of the bore. Whether this happens, I have no idea but it sounds logical

I note, you wisely qualified by saying "if". My experience with the TC Maxi is limited (by choice). Good performance is strictly determined by temperature conditions and choice of lube and understanding not all barrels were created equal. IMHO, the only safe way to shoot a TC Maxi is to load at the range, in the shade under a roof and never, never-ever allow the muzzle to point down. That Maxi can come off the charge and lodge about the middle of the bore until you shoot and possibly have it all blow apart for you. :shocked2:

 

[Cruzatte]

Although I have both caplocks and flintlocks, I prefer flintlocks despite the flintlocks inefficiencies. The following explains the 2 causes of the inefficiencies of a flintlock rifle and the internal ballistics of a flintlock.

The prime is ignited which in turn ignites the main charge through the touch hole. {TH} The powder burns and produces gases which produce a pressure spike which is caused by overcoming the inertia of the PRB. When part of the powder charge and PRB start to move up the bore, gases escape through the TH and these gases continue to escape but at a diminishing rate until the PRB exits the bore. So, the smaller the TH, the less gas escapes.

The other inefficiency is caused by blowby down the grooves due to insufficient sealing by the patch. I don't think blowby can be eliminated w/ any combination of RB dia and patch thickness that is loadable w/ a short starter and RR.

Photos of PRBs just prior to exiting the bore display blowby which varies due to looser or tighter PRB combos.

The above are my explanations for the inefficiencies of the flintlock rifle and I'm open to a discussion that proves or disapproves the above causes and also my explanation of the internal ballistics of a flintlock......Fred

Inefficient? Yeah....so what? Did the marksman hit what he or she was aiming at? No? Then do it over till it's right. If yes, do it again, and remember how it was done.

To a great degree, the amount of "efficiency" is purely academic and of little practical, that is every day, use. The real question is: Does this gun do the job or doesn't it? Let us not forget the real purpose of fire arms: that is to kill something, either beast or man. That's my take on it, and I'm sticking to it. op:

 

[Col. Batguano]

Indeed you are correct. All ML'ing arms are going to have gas blow-by. That's part of the reason people advocate the use of pure soft lead for their RB's. It's a very small ogive of the ball that will engage the patch and rifling, and the deformation of the ball itself is caused by the acceleration force on the ball. That deformation along with the patch and lube is what has to seal the charge behind the ball. That's why stouter charges often produce tighter groups. Better engagement with the rifling.

The issue of lock time is another inherent disadvantage of open touch hole arms relative to cap guns. The seal from the primer (in this case a cap) is much better than one with an open hole. Thus, pressure in the chamber will build up much more quickly. I think Pletch did some timing regarding this, and he came up with a total dwell time (from sear trip to ball exit) of something like .035 seconds for a cap gun, and about .090 seconds for a flinter. I'm not sure if he tested match locks, but he did with wheel locks, and they were only a few thousandths faster than a flint gun (lock time only).

 

[Kansas Jake]

Both the flintlock and cap lock are much more efficient than a modern firearm. When I shoot my flinter or capper the only thing left is smoke in the air, some degradable patching down range and in the case of a capper some bits of the cap. If I shoot an unmentionable there is brass or plastic cases scattered all over to be disposed of unless I reload. :grin:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Both the flintlock and cap lock are much more efficient than a modern firearm. When I shoot my flinter or capper the only thing left is smoke in the air, some degradable patching down range and in the case of a capper some bits of the cap. If I shoot an unmentionable there is brass or plastic cases scattered all over to be disposed of unless I reload. :grin:

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: ......Brass cases or plastic hulls also take a lot more time, energy, and resources to manufacture.....Making a muzzleloader even more efficient..... :wink:

 

[Vaino]

The last 2 responders are offering some info that really isn't pertinent to the topic and isn't concerned w/ the efficiency of the internal ballistics of a flintlock.

Don't think that the spent shells from a CF have anything to do w/ efficiency of the internal ballistics of a CF....which has the ultimate efficiency due to zero gas leakage except w/ semi and fully automatic weapons that are gas operated.

Like I said....I prefer to shoot flintlocks despite their internal ballistic inefficiencies. Wars were won and lost using flintlocks, but the fact still remains that there are 2 locations of gas leakage...Fred

 

[Pete G]

...and don't forget that flintlocks are just more fun.... :grin:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

..., better bragging rights too, especially when successful in the rain...., :shocked2: :grin:

LD

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

don't forget that flintlocks are just more fun..

I agree for U and me. But ya gotta remember there are those who don't want to apply the xtra love and care it takes to make a flintlock sing like a bird. Some guys just want to go boom. Flintlocks are like a lady, ya got to treat them with respect :haha:
Flintlocklar

 

[Loyalist Dave]

There are folks that want more than one shot, and think that blazing away is what it takes to harvest deer, and there also folks that don't want to go to the trouble to hunt, and will pay huge prices for venison stew at the local, French restaurant (if the law allows for farmed venison)... c'est la vie..., it's they that lose, not we. atriot:

LD

 

[nkbj]

Although I have both caplocks and flintlocks, I prefer flintlocks despite the flintlocks inefficiencies. The following explains the 2 causes of the inefficiencies of a flintlock rifle and the internal ballistics of a flintlock.

The prime is ignited which in turn ignites the main charge through the touch hole. {TH} The powder burns and produces gases which produce a pressure spike which is caused by overcoming the inertia of the PRB. When part of the powder charge and PRB start to move up the bore, gases escape through the TH and these gases continue to escape but at a diminishing rate until the PRB exits the bore. So, the smaller the TH, the less gas escapes.

The other inefficiency is caused by blowby down the grooves due to insufficient sealing by the patch. I don't think blowby can be eliminated w/ any combination of RB dia and patch thickness that is loadable w/ a short starter and RR.

Photos of PRBs just prior to exiting the bore display blowby which varies due to looser or tighter PRB combos.

The above are my explanations for the inefficiencies of the flintlock rifle and I'm open to a discussion that proves or disapproves the above causes and also my explanation of the internal ballistics of a flintlock......Fred

Be thankful you're not stuck with using a smoking match.
:wink:

 

[smoothshooter]

There is always blowby as a bullet travels down a barrel.
I have seen many slow motion videos of even copper jacketed bullets exiting the bore of modern guns such as 1911 .45 ACP, .30/30, .308 Winchester, etc., AFTER the smoke and fire come out first.
It's a losing battle anyway, so why worry about it?
If a modern centerfire target rifle has gas leakage around the bullet and still manages to fire a five-shot group well under an inch at 200 yards, that tells me it is not a problem. At least in rifles.

Gas blowby in cartridge handguns in the cylinder throat and barrel forcing cone areas when shooting lead bullets CAN BE a problem in those areas, but that is another issue, and usually solvable.

 

[nhmoose]

Don't care they are funnier than a brass suppository gun IMHO

 

[coloradoclyde]

There is always blowby as a bullet travels down a barrel.
I have seen many slow motion videos of even copper jacketed bullets exiting the bore of modern guns such as 1911 .45 ACP, .30/30, .308 Winchester, etc., AFTER the smoke and fire come out first.

I'm inclined to agree with you but then two things come to mind.....
First we have bullet jump, the distance/time between the powder igniting and the bullet fully sealing in the barrel. Gas can bypass the bullet until it fully engages the rifling.

Second is compression of air ahead of the bullet.

I'd like to see a slow speed film that accounts for these factors.