The Future of Traditional Muzzleloaders?

[Urban Coyote]

It's no secret T/C has long been out of the "traditional" sidelock muzzleloader business. Lyman appears to have gotten out of the business. Investmentarms, once maker of Lyman and others is offering what appears to be the former Lyman line that have been renamed, reports indicate later Lyman marketed guns are not a good as those from the past. Pedersoli is still making guns but feedback suggests their quality is hit and miss. Traditions and some others are still around, but for how long?

Will future shooters find it increasingly difficult to find new production muzzleloaders of traditional designs? Will used muzzleloaders, condition often an iffy proposition, of traditional design become the only option aside from custom offerings?

My crystal ball has me thinking if one wants a quality production muzzleloader of traditional design the clock is ticking and it might be wise to pick up a quality used or new old stock gun before it's too late.

Your thoughts?

 

[Tenring]

The 70’s spurred the muzzleloader craze and in its defense has held on strong for many years but I think as time strolled bi company‘s just want to move in a new direction because of cost, politics and just lack of interest.and as far as the Italian market gos when I spoke with the Stoger rep he said all and I mean all the different gun makers lost there really good craftsman due to the Covid killing machine now there stuck with cross trained people that really have no skill and to them it’s just a job.

 

[tenngun]

You have to be pretty nerdy to get in to ml and stay there. If you’re in to living history or you shoot traditional but have no interest in funny looking clothes and sleeping in a tent it’s still a nerdy occupation.
Model railroads or model aircraft, all the same. Home pottery or home made beer, just doesn’t get a lot of interest in the general population
And we have had over a century of newest is better. Everything about ml is primitive, even for in lines. There is nothing an ml does well.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The world is a much better place with out all those low end guns being made.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Families are much smaller these days, and younger generations have almost no interest in traditional muzzleloaders. Hunters today are looking for the best, most high-tech muzzleloaders to hunt with, which is why commercial offerings for tradional guns get smaller every year. There will be exceptions, but I feel traditional muzzleloading will largely go by the wayside before I do.....

 

[William Sublette]

Look at any photo of ML gathering.....



All grey beards.

The majority of the members on this board won't be around in 10 years.


This will free up a lot of nice rifles in estates sales and such.

 

[Dale Lilly]

Who will know enough to buy them? My wife's daughter, in her sixties could not figure out how a trad ML worked, could not understand those funny looking little brass/copper 'cups'. She is a very intelligent executive, now retired as a millionaire. No interest leads to lack of understanding .. or vice versa. Polecat

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The movie Davy Crockett and the centennial of the civil war, spurred a major interest in traditional muzzle loading. Modern style muzzle loaders were limited to one of a kind models from tinkerers' garages. Before the interest died down we were into the bicentennial of the revolution and Jeremiah Johnson, and How the West Was Won, (the TV series, not the movie) There have been a few sparks of popularity for traditional guns from Last of the Mohicans and the Patriot. The big numbers of hard core muzzle loader fans are dying off and getting too old. Manufacturers have really pulled the wool over the eyes of American hunters with the notion that retrofitted bolt action rifles with $7.00 bullets and elephant loads of Super Whup Butt 2000 powder are necessary for white tail. 60 years ago, the 30-30 was the standard for big game in PA. Anything more powerful was "over gunned" Now we have hunters who think a 460 magnum is necessary for anything over 50 yds. The notion that power will negate the need for accuracy has brought insanity to the deer woods. I have to laugh when I hear folks saying 150 grains and a 350 grain bullet are needed. My Grandfather shot many a deer with a 32 Rimfire back when rim fires were still legal in PA. What is even more astounding is the number of out door "experts" who will put their name on anything they are sponsored to say, except the truth.

 

[Ben Meyer]

The actual guns is the last thing I worry about.

I look at my son as an example. We've always been a gun family, and he's the biggest gun enthusiast in the family. He's 21 now, is currently in the middle east with the Army. I did my level best to get him interested in BP guns and it worked! He owns a nice flintlock rifle and pistol(both hand built), a Zoli Zouave, a Pietta revolver and a CVA inline. And all the trimmings, including period correct clothes. We went to shows, we went to historical sites. We even reenacted once! But that love changed. Milsurp rifles(he owns 6). Tactical/AR builds. Modern arms. It makes some sense...he's the squad designated marksman for his Army infantry rifle team. Carries a $10000 precision AR10, an M4 and a sidearm for "work."

I see his NICE traditional stuff hanging on a wall as decor til he's 40 and maybe his kids show an interest. Maybe all 3 of us will go burn some powder then! And I look at all MY middle aged friends. NOT ONE shoots black powder except scoped inlines for deer season and that's it. FWIW, I'm shooting BP this weekend at a club shoot/contest.

I worry less about lack of available guns, more about a next generation of people who actually want to shoot them.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Here in PA we have a three week Flintlock only season for deer, starting the day after Christmas. It keeps traditional rifles alive here. But so many hunters buy a short barreled 50 caliber Spanish made carbine with day glo plastic sights and plastic stock. About as traditional as a pink F-450 non dually diesel pick up truck.

 

[azmntman]

I have zero friends that shoot traditional and only 2-3 (including my son) that shoot inline. I watched way too much Dan'l Boone I guess....

 

[dave951]

Well, y'all might not like this but ....

Every response so far is negative and dwelling on the symptoms of the issue. Whining never fixed anything. Face it, the real enemy here is ourselves for not being more outgoing and supporting new shooters. Parochial arguments and snobbery of PRB, flint, percussion, long rifles, rondys, etc (while entertaining to us) are a bad vibe for a newbie. Next take the absolute lack of support for youth shooting sports with traditional arms and how in tarnation can you be wondering about all the graybeards? In short, nobody's refilling the pipeline while we all play with our stinky, smokey toys in our own little corner of firearms nerdyland.

Quit whining and look for solutions. We all see the problem, let's get moving on solving it.

 

[NorthFork]

You have to be pretty nerdy to get in to ml and stay there. If you’re in to living history or you shoot traditional but have no interest in funny looking clothes and sleeping in a tent it’s still a nerdy occupation.
Model railroads or model aircraft, all the same. Home pottery or home made beer, just doesn’t get a lot of interest in the general population
And we have had over a century of newest is better. Everything about ml is primitive, even for in lines. There is nothing an ml does well.

Honestly the "nerdy" is dead on. I prefer eccentric. But nerdy works. It just won't be as popular as other types of shooting.

 

[NorthFork]

The world is a much better place with out all those low end guns being made.

And you sir are wrong. No beginner is going to shell out $1500++++ for a custom gun. The low end guns have their place. Or is it that you don't care if 'newbies' ever become interested in black powder?

 

[NorthFork]

Well, y'all might not like this but ....

Every response so far is negative and dwelling on the symptoms of the issue. Whining never fixed anything. Face it, the real enemy here is ourselves for not being more outgoing and supporting new shooters. Parochial arguments and snobbery of PRB, flint, percussion, long rifles, rondys, etc (while entertaining to us) are a bad vibe for a newbie. Next take the absolute lack of support for youth shooting sports with traditional arms and how in tarnation can you be wondering about all the graybeards? In short, nobody's refilling the pipeline while we all play with our stinky, smokey toys in our own little corner of firearms nerdyland.

Quit whining and look for solutions. We all see the problem, let's get moving on solving it.

This right here!

 

[Frontier's]

And you sir are wrong. No beginner is going to shell out $1500++++ for a custom gun. The low end guns have their place. Or is it that you don't care if 'newbies' ever become interested in black powder?

Exactly. I've been going 15+ years and my $289 Traditions Hawken is still my go to gun. I've handled many custom guns by big name builders and haven't been impressed.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

I don't think it's dying. I think where you see it is just changing. People are sharing how they enjoy the hobby on social media. Hershel House's group on Facebook alone has 22k members posting hourly. We have young people including my 11 year old son participating in hunting and shooting events. Young adults are getting into muzzleloader building.

Youth shoot this year. This is the future of the sport:

My son shooting a Fowler I built at Friendship:

Shooting his TC Seneca:

Here's a friend of mine that I got into muzzleloading this year and took him on his first deer hunt. He's hooked!

If you think it's dying go look at these groups on FB:

Hershel House Long Rifles and such | Facebook

www.facebook.com

Skills of the 18th Century Woodsmen: Linen, Leather, and Steel | Facebook

This group is dedicated to the 18th Century Woodsmen or Woods Runners, their skills, their kit and clothing, and the blacksmithing of their accoutrements and sharing the knowledge we living...

www.facebook.com

The Flintlock Gunmaker | Facebook

Welcome! This group is for you the builder of any style flintlock Rifle, smooth bore, or fowler. If you're an amature or professional. Wheather you work alone or in a group. A place for all to...

www.facebook.com

Traditional Muzzleloading, Black Powder, and Casting | Facebook

www.facebook.com

There is still a very strong interest in our sport. It's not in it's hay day but definitely not going to die off because TC stopped making side locks. That's my 2 cents from where I stand. It's all perception but I see it carrying on.

 

[B P Maniac Shooter]

The world is a much better place with out all those low end guns being made.

I disagree....
I would like to see even more "low end" guns being built. New shooters can't find factory reasonably priced guns anywhere. If a new shooter gets involved with the hobby with a "low end" gun....they eventually will pick up a better gun if they stay interested. I don't know of anyone that forks out $1200.00 - $1500.00 for a custom gun unless they know exactly what they are looking for or has been shooting already.
I started out with a Tradition's Woodsman Hawken percussion rifle in 2013. They aren't worth much, probably $150.00-$175.00 here in KY.
The most expensive gun I own ( including a custom one ) cost me $700.00. ( or less. )

 

[NorthFork]

Exactly. I've been going 15+ years and my $289 Traditions Hawken is still my go to gun. I've handled many custom guns by big name builders and haven't been impressed.

I respectfully ask that you post more pics of this fine arm please!

 

[Ben Meyer]

I totally agree as well with the notion that lower priced guns are a good thing. I have a pretty nice flintlock but it's nothing compared to some of the beautiful rifles I've seen. FWIW, the gun I'll be shooting this weekend is a 1985 Charles Daly/Investarms Hawken I bought 5 yrs ago for $210 at Conner Prairie. Hardly a work of art! But it's a SHOOTER! I have just as much fun taking it for a day on the range as I would any other rifle.

Muzzleloading should not HAVE to be expensive!