The Do Everything Gun

[Rob M.]

Lads, I'm asking specifically for input on what sorts of reproductions can be used for the widest spread of impressions and time periods for reenacting purposes in the interest of thrift, not the general utility of the gun.

I'm a bit bias toward the NW trade gun but hear me out . I love its versatility and light weight but ...funny I found your post , I've tried to tell folks ,they are not only great game getters but also they stretch such a long period of history for reenacting . People tend to think of the NW trade gun as a western Mountain man firearm but it spanned such a long time period . The cast serpent side plate was introduced in 1749 . So ....isn't that crazy ?! So kinda think 1749 to say 1849 , just to make it easy to remember . Thats crazy ! F&I War , Rev.War , 1812 , western movement , fur trade period and a bit beyond ... Now , dont get me wrong , there were differences in the early ones but the gun adhered to a standard pattern so the differences were subtle and most folks , the vast majority, would not know the differences . The one difference that folks would notice is the trigger guard . Early trigger guard had much smaller bows in them than the post 1780 trigger guards . Approx. 1780 , via T.M.Hamilton ,. So .... If you get a N.W. Trade gun and have both styles of trigger guard made for it you can just switch the surface mounted trigger guard and use it in so many different time periods . Kinda neat ...

 

[Rob M.]

Three early style trigger guards for the N.W. trade gun , pre 1780 , shallow bows and early style finials on the ends

 

[Coinneach]

I'm a bit bias toward the NW trade gun but hear me out . I love its versatility and light weight but ...funny I found your post , I've tried to tell folks ,they are not only great game getters but also they stretch such a long period of history for reenacting . People tend to think of the NW trade gun as a western Mountain man firearm but it spanned such a long time period . The cast serpent side plate was introduced in 1749 . So ....isn't that crazy ?! So kinda think 1749 to say 1849 , just to make it easy to remember . Thats crazy ! F&I War , Rev.War , 1812 , western movement , fur trade period and a bit beyond ... Now , dont get me wrong , there were differences in the early ones but the gun adhered to a standard pattern so the differences were subtle and most folks , the vast majority, would not know the differences . The one difference that folks would notice is the trigger guard . Early trigger guard had much smaller bows in them than the post 1780 trigger guards . Approx. 1780 , via T.M.Hamilton ,. So .... If you get a N.W. Trade gun and have both styles of trigger guard made for it you can just switch the surface mounted trigger guard and use it in so many different time periods . Kinda neat ...

I'm a retired Army Vet with 37 years service, did more than my share of Survival courses and put it into practise a few times.
If I had to rely on only one Firearm for a survival tool, its the Smooth bore Trade gun. Everything that front loader needs can be independently sourced and made by the one using it.

 

[alcessapiens]

I know people who do very well with the '03 Springfield unmentionable. Why a well maintained 119 year old muzzle loader would be unacceptable is a puzzle to me.

I am one of those people. It’s my iron sighted deer rifle. As to old being unacceptable, my bp all rounder was a German jaeger built in suhl around 1830. .60 cal and as good as the day it was built. 180+ years of use. Sold it to a guy who still hunts with it.

 

[Rob M.]

I'm a retired Army Vet with 37 years service, did more than my share of Survival courses and put it into practise a few times.
If I had to rely on only one Firearm for a survival tool, its the Smooth bore Trade gun. Everything that front loader needs can be independently sourced and made by the one using it.

I agree bud .....Its a great gun to have around . I'm making my own powder now and source flints from creeks so its a pretty great survival tool

 

[Coinneach]

I agree bud .....Its a great gun to have around . I'm making my own powder now and source flints from creeks so its a pretty great survival tool

You can use shards of glass or any flat piece of chipped rock even if it only gives a couple of reasonable sparks, in a survival scenario anything available that will do the job is all that matters.
A measure of small gravel for Turkey shot, an almost round stone for ball; and of course your home made BP.
Too many guys waffle on about Assault rifles in a survival situation equals too many fools obsessed with "tactical" after playing video games.
My survival priority is an easily maintained "Game Getter" the self protection thing is second priority and probably will be a good Bow, long blade and knife for the obvious reasons.
Reality is that those of us who dont live near the cities or big towns will be relatively well away from the urban cannibals once the SHTF, and we can be sure of one thing they wont be capable of prowling too far sans fueled vehicles and public transport; and they wont be confident to 'play" out in our "game park".
So who's laughing at "the Preppers" now ?

 

[Rob M.]

You can use shards of glass or any flat piece of chipped rock even if it only gives a couple of reasonable sparks, in a survival scenario anything available that will do the job is all that matters.
A measure of small gravel for Turkey shot, an almost round stone for ball; and of course your home made BP.
Too many guys waffle on about Assault rifles in a survival situation equals too many fools obsessed with "tactical" after playing video games.
My survival priority is an easily maintained "Game Getter" the self protection thing is second priority and probably will be a good Bow, long blade and knife for the obvious reasons.
Reality is that those of us who dont live near the cities or big towns will be relatively well away from the urban cannibals once the SHTF, and we can be sure of one thing they wont be capable of prowling too far sans fueled vehicles and public transport; and they wont be confident to 'play" out in our "game park".
So who's laughing at "the Preppers" now ?

Geesh !! Reading my mind !! LOL .... Well said bud .

 

[AtlatlMan]

Geesh !! Reading my mind !! LOL .... Well said bud .

You ain't the only one...

 

[AtlatlMan]

I'm a bit bias toward the NW trade gun but hear me out . I love its versatility and light weight but ...funny I found your post , I've tried to tell folks ,they are not only great game getters but also they stretch such a long period of history for reenacting . People tend to think of the NW trade gun as a western Mountain man firearm but it spanned such a long time period . The cast serpent side plate was introduced in 1749 . So ....isn't that crazy ?! So kinda think 1749 to say 1849 , just to make it easy to remember . Thats crazy ! F&I War , Rev.War , 1812 , western movement , fur trade period and a bit beyond ... Now , dont get me wrong , there were differences in the early ones but the gun adhered to a standard pattern so the differences were subtle and most folks , the vast majority, would not know the differences . The one difference that folks would notice is the trigger guard . Early trigger guard had much smaller bows in them than the post 1780 trigger guards . Approx. 1780 , via T.M.Hamilton ,. So .... If you get a N.W. Trade gun and have both styles of trigger guard made for it you can just switch the surface mounted trigger guard and use it in so many different time periods . Kinda neat ...

I am curious about these very early trade guns. Someone pointed out on this very forums there is a difference between the Noethwest Trade Gun and an English Trade Gun, the latter being the earlier predecessor despite them looking very similar.

Could this be squeezed in the 1750s era?

English Trade Gun | Purchase Reproduction Veteran Arms Muskets from Muzzleloading Era

HistoryEnglish Trade Guns were made in a variety of styles by various makers. They were intended as non-military pieces and thus were fully stocked, not having

veteranarms.com

 

[Rob M.]

I am curious about these very early trade guns. Someone pointed out on this very forums there is a difference between the Noethwest Trade Gun and an English Trade Gun, the latter being the earlier predecessor despite them looking very similar.

Could this be squeezed in the 1750s era?

English Trade Gun | Purchase Reproduction Veteran Arms Muskets from Muzzleloading Era

HistoryEnglish Trade Guns were made in a variety of styles by various makers. They were intended as non-military pieces and thus were fully stocked, not having

veteranarms.com

Well .... the English trade gun makers were extensive and varied . They did not all adhere to a pattern and there were many different styles . I'm only talking about the N.W. Trade gun . Made famous by the HB company and then others started making copies or buying example from the very HBCo makers of the NW gun because it was not only a good design but well respected by their purchasers .... There were N.W. trade guns made before 1749 its just that we dont have a known surviving example so not exactly sure what one looks like ....probably just like the 1751 N.W. gun that is in the Museum of the Fur Trade but with a flat serpent but ....that is all conjecture .....

 

[Rob M.]

A fine and gorgeous example of an early English trade gun, not a NW trade gun .... Probably 1740-1760 period

 

[Stantheman86]

Yes, a thing intended to do everything will do nothing well. Things change over the years in more ways then are given credit. But if one is looking to invest in a gun that one can squeeze the absolute most out of in regards to personas and living history, what guns can stretch the longest? An English trade gun from say, the French and Indian War all the way through the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade? A 1795 musket would serve you through at least the Texian Revolution, maybe even the Mexican War. I'm sure showing up with it at a First Manassas event would draw endless ire. There is the venerable Brown Bess, but a first pattern Long Land appropriate for F&I, would probably not still be pulling duty by the early 19th century even way out in the sticks. Of course I knew more then one guy who just bought a 3rd pattern India Bess and just used it for everything from F&I through the early 19th century, their groups being less picky. Any thoughts on this?

Plenty of 1795's saw use in the Mexican War and I'm sure a few saw issue in the early days of the Civil War with State Militias.

I did some Living History as a Civil War - era "Home Guard" militiaman and I used my 1816 Pedersoli percussion conversion and a couple times my Pedersoli 1795. Both are correct for a 40 year old militiaman using what he already had from service in previous wars

 

[Rob M.]

An Early English Trade gun.... 17 teens period .... Still not a predecessor of the NW trade gun as the N.W. trade gun was being produced in the 17th century

 

[Shiloh]

A do anything gun would be a horror to me , I want and need lots of different guns for different uses

Of course you need a different gun for different weights of projectiles as well.

 

[Tommy Bruce]

Yes, a thing intended to do everything will do nothing well. Things change over the years in more ways then are given credit. But if one is looking to invest in a gun that one can squeeze the absolute most out of in regards to personas and living history, what guns can stretch the longest? An English trade gun from say, the French and Indian War all the way through the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade? A 1795 musket would serve you through at least the Texian Revolution, maybe even the Mexican War. I'm sure showing up with it at a First Manassas event would draw endless ire. There is the venerable Brown Bess, but a first pattern Long Land appropriate for F&I, would probably not still be pulling duty by the early 19th century even way out in the sticks. Of course I knew more then one guy who just bought a 3rd pattern India Bess and just used it for everything from F&I through the early 19th century, their groups being less picky. Any thoughts on this?

First let me say it’s probably impossible to cover that time frame. But if I was gonna try and my focus were on re-enactments, it would be a 2nd model Brown Bess by Pedersoli or an old Miroku. They are sturdy well made pieces that are very reliable (although Pedersoli occasionally has some frizzen issues).

Even though there are differences between it and a first model, A lot of folks use it for F&I. It would get you from their well into the 19th century……again fairly close to a 3rd model.


If I were portraying a civilian, it would be a fowling piece. If you look at Grinsdale’s book on Colonial Fowling pieces, many didn’t change over the years aside from minor cosmetics and usually the type of lock.

 

[user 53846]

Northwest Trade Gun, .62 caliber. I can forage lead, flint/Chert, I can make my own powder, I can soot ball or shot. The most practical gun to own. Most parts can be made or repaired, with minimal skill and tools.

 

[David Y. Snellen]

Dear Sir,
I completely understand your question and the financial issues. First, having owned Discriminating General/Military Heritage (1) and Middlesex (2) and Loyalists Arms (4) I would ONLY go with Loyalist. The quality and customer service are superior, and the Higgins are wonderful people that will treat you right. I can't say enough good things about them.
Second, I think there is a difference between "common" and 'likely possible'. I have some 'modern' guns that will be 100 years old in 2028, that are still great, usable firearms. However, if a person was going to war, hunting and using a firearm for protection, how long would they commonly last? We KNOW there were flintlocks, Besses, 1816 and 1803 Rifles (some that were converted) in Southern States). Did folks want Enfields or Springfields? Sure, but look at the book Butternut Brown and Cadet Grey for great descriptions of clothes and weapons here in the South. In Missouri, MANY folks were using squirrel rifles and shotguns.
As to reenacting, the time periods you are interested in are all flint eras. In many WBtS reenactments, they do not want flints used. I would say if you are dealing with normal reenactors (not the folks that will starve themselves to get the emaciated look) most will be accepting of an older style that will be used in later periods. Obviously don't by a matchlock, but you are probably safe with anything 1760 on. That said, check with any of the local groups you would be dealing with to see if they have any other requirements.
Respectfully,
David

 

[Loyalist Dave]

As to reenacting, the time periods you are interested in are all flint eras. In many WBtS reenactments, they do not want flints used. I would say if you are dealing with normal reenactors (not the folks that will starve themselves to get the emaciated look) most will be accepting of an older style that will be used in later periods. Obviously don't by a matchlock, but you are probably safe with anything 1760 on. That said, check with any of the local groups you would be dealing with to see if they have any other requirements.
Respectfully,
David

Flints were used by a very small number of combatant at the very beginning of the ACW. What we rarely see, but probably should see more of, are flintlocks from after the War of 1812 that have been converted over to use caps. THOSE make for interesting guns! Model 1816 and 1840 [converted] muskets, plus some converted 3rd Model Bess captured from New Orleans!

LD

 

[David Y. Snellen]

Dear Loyalist Dave,
You are correct. Some of the converted style guns are pretty neat. Loyalist does have an 1840 conversion I believe.
David

 

[Pratt]

Just accept what you can afford. I started with an ancient Belgian army musket many years ago. I shot it a few times. I have had a few Spanish guns as well. It is a misconception that all on the frontier had a fine flint lock long rifle. As the folks move west, they carried the Bess.
Now I shoot a 32 percussion and am building an SMR from Kibler. Shoot what you can afford. Save your dollars and buy quality that you can afford.