Tanegashima stock construction.

Discussion in 'Pre-Flintlock' started by Matt Maier, Dec 7, 2019.

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  1. Dec 7, 2019 #1

    Matt Maier

    Matt Maier

    Matt Maier

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    I have an interest in building a Japanese style matchlock at some point in the future. I am wondering about the brass ring around the stock and the breech. Were Japanese guns constructed with a two piece stock?
     
  2. Dec 8, 2019 #2

    Matt Maier

    Matt Maier

    Matt Maier

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    Did more research. Stocks were one piece.
     
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  3. Dec 8, 2019 #3

    Artificer

    Artificer

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    Matt,

    I have worked on four original Tanagashima's and yes, all four had one piece stocks. What blew my mind was all four had wood or bone pins that held the barrel to the stocks.

    BTW, though of course there are some major decorative differences AND the fact the Japanese figured out how to use Bronze for both "regular" and wound sheet coil mainsprings, they were copies of Portuguese Matchlocks. So that is another place to look for basic construction details.

    Gus
     
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  4. Dec 8, 2019 #4

    Matt Maier

    Matt Maier

    Matt Maier

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    Yes, I find the use of bronze interesting as it work hardens. It would stand to reason that such springs would eventually get brittle and crack.
     
  5. Dec 8, 2019 #5

    Matt Maier

    Matt Maier

    Matt Maier

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    Although I feel there must have been some practical considerations at play as well there, as if I'm not mistaken, iron was scarce in the Japanese archipelago, and most of it went towards swordsmithing. It would make sense to use iron only for the barrel and brass/bronze for components where stresses were lower.
     
  6. Dec 8, 2019 #6

    Rudyard

    Rudyard

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    The Japoneese snap matchlocks came via Portugees traders but the guns where more likely from the Venetion regions of Italy . For reasons unfathomable to us the skilled sword makers could not make steel springs or tap the threads beyound some course breech plugs ..But they got by and turned out umpteen very varied guns .Look under Matchlocks in the Forum sections .I think Petersoli offered replica ones . If besides general interests the 'Tanagashima' International M L A I C Competitions have events for them ..They are not my idea of ideal preffering the Veniecian style stocking but some do very well with them . The matches are at 55 yards off hand & kneeling . Wonderfull guns to shoot saves buying flints or copper caps !. Rudyard

    PS What is peculiar to Japanees guns is they used oak for stocking and had an almost enclosed rod channel leaving a thin slot a feature derived curiously from the Venitian ones . Ditto pan design and forward falling snaplock what the didnt copy was the shoulder stock it is my speculation that what was traded was a damaged piece that the tidied up & sold off to the unsuspecting Shogun ..R
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  7. Dec 16, 2019 #7

    Ezeikel

    Ezeikel

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    Matt should you come across any drawings plans etc I would be interested. You dont see much here in New Zealand and Its a project I have been collecting bits for a while now but Ive not seen a drawing I can make a reasonable copy from.
     
  8. Dec 18, 2019 #8

    rickystl

    rickystl

    rickystl

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    Just a thought here....You might try locating a collector in your area and see if there is an original example you can borrow to make a copy. This might not be that difficult. In my net work I even know a couple collectors in NZ. Matt: Where are you located ? I do have photos of my original assembled and disassembled if that would help. But being able to hold an original would be the best.
     
  9. Dec 18, 2019 #9

    Ezeikel

    Ezeikel

    Ezeikel

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    Thats great if I can get some photos and I agree . Making a gun is as much about feeling and touching as looking. Im in the far north of NZ about 50 Ks from whangerei. Thanks for the help
     
  10. Dec 19, 2019 #10

    Erwan

    Erwan

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    Bonjour Rudyard,

    According to various histories one of them say this: the first teppo gived (it was sold in fact) to a japanese daymio was a broken Portuguese musket by accident.
    That story say that the teppo was sold for a good price by Portugueses sailors after that the broken butt have been cutted. The Daymio would have seen the best blacksmith he knows and asked for three copy.
    This legend or story is supposed explain why the teppos don't have a full stock.
    We can note too that the original Portuguese musket of this time had not a full stock, so this story can be stored like the others in the folklore cabinet ...

    [​IMG]

    Have a nice day. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
  11. Dec 19, 2019 #11

    Rudyard

    Rudyard

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    Bonsure et coma savva. Mon ammie Erwin. ( I can misspell in several languages !)

    Well the tale has credence and the MLAIC rules waffle on about the Portugeses matchlock, But The design is SO strongly Venietian region (not just Venice but the whole region they then controlled ) Produced huge numbers of what where in effect the AK47 of its day (Whatever they are !) . Yes the Portugese got it there but it from clear evidence it is Venition . If they made any it may well ellulate the Venietian .And that the Portugese preferred short stocks is highly unlikey . But the MLAIC bods seem to want them to exist or existed . The ' Mary Rose' had numbers aboard that servive to compare with known Venitian examples now lodged at the Royal Armouries . Guy Wilson when curator formed the same conclusion , The features compare too alike to dismiss . But the Portugese started the Japonese guns industry .The rulers decided that foreign influences didn't suit them so the whole country ceased to allow any foreign trade( Aside of one Englishman who they set up as the sole ' go to' expert in all matters foreign . No doubt the Dutch did want to trade. But no show until the Americans literally batter down the closed door in the mid 19c . That's a potted history . believe it or not but the guns don't lie . Compare them tell me they don't . Cheers Rudyard
     
  12. Dec 19, 2019 #12

    Erwan

    Erwan

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    Ca va, ça va Rudyard, ;)

    About MLAIC I prefer forget it : all is historical when it goes in the good way (the MLAIC way of thinking) and bad if it’s in another sensse that the MLAIC will, I have seen that sometime with arms and accessories…
    You are certainly right when talking of the japaneses weapons, the Portugueses, the britishes and the Dutchs.
    The first, by décision of the pope, comming in Japan were the Portugueses and after the Spannishes.
    After the battle of Sekigahara only Will Adams (english working for the Dutch company), man that knew Tokugawa Ieyastsu an become samuraï have right to stay for exchange and buisness. In this time the matchlocks were presents in Japan and at the Sekigahara battle, the battle that Tokugawa Ieyastu won: those musket have never changed in style till the XIXth century at the end of the shoguns and the coming of Meiji.
    In this way of consideration the Portugueses muskets, certainly inspired by other like, why not Venicians, are the first japanese matchlocks and the only great differency the metal : brass at the place of steel and iron…
    So, after all and after looking the Portuguese musket we can see that it’s not issued from Venice (the region) only but also Germany, France, Spain and Dutchland, it looks like a mix of all that…

    Anyway that have no agrement for shooting in Tanegashima or Izadaï for the simpliest reason than it is not in the synoptic of the MLAIC while the Tryon handstand is accepted (just one example MLAIC) ...
     
  13. Dec 20, 2019 #13

    Rudyard

    Rudyard

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    "Ca Va Ca va Bien , Mercie ' Erwan Et toute l mond des Arquebussiers .?

    Well We know the Venitian where sold all over Europe in large quantitys Henry the 8th sought thousands and some sank on the Mary rose in 1545 or 6 and recovered recently compared to other examples now housed in the Royal Armouries . I have Guy Wilsons notes . He thought the comparison with Japanese copies was clear . Hence I believe they most likely to be Venition .
    However no doubt some other source could have reached as well . The original European & Japonees copys ALL vary like Indian matchlocks All the same basically, but ALL different . . .I see where you are with MLAIC. I too challenged the rule re Tangashima match as I shot a lot of matchlock & made a lot for this sort for customers , All sorts of delightfully weird varients if mostly snap matchlock rather than the common lock since the let off is more reliable . I shot and won a gold at Bisley MLAGB Short range but promptly sold it off the a gentleman from Jersey who bought several over the yearly entries .(Saved me cleaning them ! ) . From memory it was gun number 88 of 1988 they were used by the UK Canadian & New Zealand team members or some of them at least ..Sort of a ' Virtuoso on the concert Arquebuss ' ! .I supplied two to the the Gunner of the' Golden Hinde' (They used to use the E ) . There on display in a Museum Winnipeg , a Caliver & a Petronel with patron & collar of bandoleers I made for him maybe the forked rest though I,ve not seen them for years .( I was crossing Canada and hopped off a freight train to visit .long before they were loaned to the Museum ). I wouldnt call them 'Museum quality' but they must do . Anyway I digress kind Regards & all the best in the new year.
    Votr'e Ami Rudyard
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
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  14. Dec 20, 2019 #14

    Ezeikel

    Ezeikel

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    So cmon guys ,theres me here dying to start a new project and I cant get anything in the way of info to give me a solid start. Someone must have some good pictures or a drawing around I can beg borrow or steal?
     
  15. Dec 20, 2019 #15

    snoutsugar

    snoutsugar

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    Pics are of the original muskets left by the Portuguese in Japan museum. Third one is lost to time I think.
    One of the Portuguese pics is a close up of the gun pictured with the pole underneath or pic 3, left to right.

    The other match lock is mine which is available . From late 1500 to 1615. In working order. Silver inlays, gold and brass leaf engravings of the Samurai OWNER...he was over weight (looking at his face in the engravings) and owned this gun proving he was of rank and probably middle aged.
    Most of the nicer guns look the same, same embellishments. Made in Honshu, Lake Biwa. I lived /worked in Japan and i asked why do you make or grow the same thing and not much of anything else,....he said what they make is the best, why make anything else, it would not sell...,.i told him, have you ever heard the saying, Variety is the spice of life?.....he didnt care......about variety......

    Guns only lasted about 50 yrs with the Samurai, the Sword was everything,...,,,,,

    Enjoy
     

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  16. Dec 21, 2019 #16

    Rudyard

    Rudyard

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    The bulbous butted gun is evidently an air gun and pump . the other is right enough . The basic approach Ide guess would be to get a big lump of Oak , Bore it near as long a the barrel to give you the location of the barrel (since getting the rod hole after the barrel would be a real trick !) since its only exposed by a thin slot the barrel would have loops to secure it but the breach band Ide guess would have to come from the muzzle end down to the plug area , the pan you can wing there are many pics. The lock internals are anyones guess but it not rocket science . All else you can wing per the pics, if the fancy work might be a challenge . You've made a Baker Ezekiel this would be a doddle in comparison . Rudyard
     
  17. Dec 21, 2019 #17

    snoutsugar

    snoutsugar

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    Have no idea what you're talking about.
    Butt stock was designed to fit with armor they wore.....btw........

    Have good day
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  18. Dec 21, 2019 #18

    Rudyard

    Rudyard

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    My reply wasn't to you Snoutsugar but to Ezekiel who I know well . I doubt your speculation re design to suit armour though it may help . Ide go with Erwans conclusion .
    Regards Rudyard
     
  19. Dec 21, 2019 #19

    snoutsugar

    snoutsugar

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    Whoops, sorry Rudyard.

    Learn the Japanese and design questions are simple.
    If it's not theirs, they make it their own.......fine smart logical craftsman.
     

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  20. Dec 21, 2019 #20

    Ezeikel

    Ezeikel

    Ezeikel

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    Thanks rudyard and everyone else it all helps.
    Rudyard , brass cut 2 times 8 inches for you ,one for me, two lockplates for you two
     

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