T.C.Hawken Shooting High

[CheckSix]

Tokk my .45 Hawken to the range (with a new hot shot nipple) and was confused. The first three shots were 4 1/2 inches high and 3 inches left at 50 yards. No problem; I adjusted the sights. The sight bottomed out for elevation after three clicks. The windage didn't seem to have clicks, but I brought it right about 3/4 turn.
The next shot was dead center for windage, but still about 4 inches high.
I dropped the powder charge from 60 grains of FFFg to 40 grains and the shot went back to 3 inches left at the same elevation, 4 inches high.
Frustrated, I brought the target in to 25 yards and the shot went dead center.
I'm not the best shot, but I'm not THAT inconsistent. With the double-set trigger, it's easy to fire when the sights are centered. I was shooting with my left hand supported on a bench.

I was wiping with a damp and then dry patch between shots and using the same pre-lubed patch for each shot. The first three shot group was about 1 inch, so I think the accuracy is there, just not at point of aim at 50 yards.

Any ideas what's going on?

 

[stubshaft]

You have to find a higher front sight or use a stiffer charge.

 

[CheckSix]

Let's see if I understand the reasoning...

With 40 and 60 grains, the barrel rises enough under recoil to make it hit high at 50 yards.
A larger powder charge would move the ball out of the barrel sooner; before the muzzle rise made it hit unusually high.

Is that it?

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

If you haven’t thought of it, try shooting from a sand bagged rest. I’d start with the target at maybe 25 yards to see where the rifle is hitting consistently. I would begin with a load of 40 grains FFFG. Shoot a string of maybe five rounds, holding at the same point on the target. If things are looking pretty good, adjust the charge up 5 grains at a time. Shoot your strings in between the adjustments. Once you get it printing where you like, move the target out to 50 yards. Follow the same simple process, if the rifle is hitting where you like with 45 grains, at 25 yards, see where it hits at 50 yards with the same aim point. Adjust up from there. Once you get your elevation where you want, then adjust for windage if needed.

I don’t swab the barrel after each shot. The fouling from the FFFG powder is minimal. You might swab the barrel after you move the target back. The trick is to be consistent as much as possible, shot to shot.

I’d also check to make sure the sight isn’t loose, and the barrel wedge is snug. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Griz44Mag]

What rear sight are you using? The factory barrel mounted sight or a tang mount? (Lyman 57sml or Williamns FP?)

 

[Grenadier1758]

You likely need a new front sight. Measure your front sight. Track of the Wolf has a front sight to replace the T/C Partridge front sight. It is 0.365" above the base. Hopefully the T/C sight is taller than the sight on your rifle.

The Hawken shop has a fixed conversion rear sight for your T/C.

Hopefully the new nipple fixed the pushing of the hammer to half cock. Now you have more pressure pushing the bullet out of the barrel and its shooting high.

 

[azmntman]

Check sites for sure, those old TC sites have driven me mad as mine moved all over. Same issues as you till I replaced with old fashioned fixed sites. Mine looked great and I could see that they were moving but after replacing them the issue went away :idunno:

I myself suggest you continue to swab, THAT will keep the barrel conditions the same between shots, IMHO. If no swabbing each shot leaves a bit of crud and the barrel gets smaller and smaller (not noticable by eye but likely by ramrod force needed to set the next 4 balls).

 

[stubshaft]

Yes, higher velocity usually results in a lower POI. This can be achieved by more powder or lighter projectile.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Try 90 grains of 2F.

 

[Jimbo47]

When I sighted my rifle at fifty with 60 grains my group was about 1 1/2" above POA.
When I tried 70 grains my POI was 1 1/2" below POA.
With 60 grains when I backed off to 70 yards my POI was 3" above POA, so what that told me was at 70 yards, my round ball was gaining + trajectory.
With the higher load of 70 grains at fifty yards, I hit low, and would have had to adjust my sights accordingly, so I settled on 60 grains.
You just have to work with what works and dial it in.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Stay at 50 yards. That 40 grain charge is kinda light for a .45. Might work but drop will be considerable at 100 yards and wind will play havoc with it. Your problem is not charge. Your front sight needs to be higher. I would replace it with a patridge type blade. Shoot some groups, if they are too low adjust your rear sight and/or file (lightly) some off the top of the front sight. Rear adjustment better choice however. But, yer doing the right thing.....shooting. :applause: Keep at it and let us know what happens.

 

[bubba.50]

first thing I would do is quit restin' my hand on the bench. either put sand bags under the fore-arm or support the gun in yer hand while lightly restin' yer elbow on the bench.

 

[CheckSix]

Got back to the range...
I am swabbing between shots with a dry patch wrapped around a .45 cal. brass brush.
I am using a tighter patch.
With this technique, the loading effort stays constant, so I think I have the same level of fouling for each shot.
Point of impact is at the top of the front sight at fifty yards with 60 grains of FFF.
Next time out I think I'll try 80 grains to see if the point of impact comes down.
Comments?

 

[davidmc62]

You never really answered one of the questions asked earlier. Are you supporting the rifle on the bench or grounding it on sand bags? Your post said "left hand supported on the bench" Supported by sand bags or your elbow on the bench? All it takes is the smallest amount of muscle wobble and set triggers only help so much with that. So is the gun doing this or are you doing this with the gun?

 

[necchi]

Are you supporting the rifle on the bench or grounding it on sand bags?

Or just plain how your shouldering and holding the rifle.
It's not a modern gun at all,, and the drop of comb and butt position are distinctively different then modern guns on purpose. The T/C Hawken try's to replicate olde guns,, the butt should be and is held on the upper arm outside of the shoulder,, the "cheek" of the T/C Hawken is there because it means "cheek".
I'm not trying to beat you up CheckSix, Honest.
But your accuracy and sight adjustment results are not really new to us at all.
There is nothing wrong with the rifle, the sight's , the powder charge or your method of loading.
It's a new rifle to you and a new/different style of rifle shooting then your used too.
If your willing to try something different we can help.
If your going to be another one of those stubborn guy's that's the best shooter ever and there's a problem with the gun because the sights don't work,, well then :idunno:

p.s. the sights work on T/C Hawkens.
p.s.s. I hate the T/C Hawken. That rifle doesn't fit me for ****! The T/C Renegade is much better!

 

[CheckSix]

OK, I shoot from a concrete bench at our local club range. I put a 4x4 inch block on the bench and a sand bag on top of the block. I grip the fore stock about 6-8 inches back from the fore cap and rest my hand on the sand bag. I shoulder the stock and rest my right elbow on the bench. It is a solid position and feels comfortable.

I don't claim to be the best shooter in the world, but I can see where the sights are when the gun fires. The windage is perfect; elevation is my only concern.

 

[necchi]

I shoulder the stock

It is not supposed to be on your shoulder. Nor should it fit there properly.
That curved butt plate is supposed to be on your upper arm,, and the cheek of your face,, should be "ON" the cheek of the rifle.
If you can't physically achieve that sight picture while holding the rifle,, the rifles sights will not properly align for the rifles design.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

A trick to use when shooting from a sand bag is to use you support hand at the back end of the rifle. Let the rifle rest on the sandbag. Take your support hand and reach back to the toe of the butt plate. Make a fist with your thumb pointing up and lightly hold onto the toe of the stock. Mount the rifle as you normally would. If the sand bags are at the correct height, and your neck isn’t stressed looking through your sights, simply squeeze your fist and relax it while looking through the sights. You’ll see how much you can elevate, or depress the sights on the target. You can do that for hours and not get fatigued. Also put your cheek on the same spot each time you shoot. Maintain a constant, consistent eye relief to the rear sight.

Also, stay away from coffee, soda and smoking. Those can give you slight to heavy jitters.

As for planting the butt of the stock while shooting, you can still do that while holding onto the toe with your fist.

I have a TC Hawken. I shoot with the buttplate anchored in the pocket area of my shoulder, that’s inside the shoulder, not outside toward the upper arm. I also drop my right elbow down. That tightens up things and I don’t get tired holding my elbow out.

Don’t stay on the sights for more than fifteen or twenty seconds. The eye easily gets fatigued and starts to wander. Sometimes the shooter feels the need to rush the shot because the eye can start to wander.

One last thing, if you do get a little tired, get off the sights for a few moments. Make sure your head and neck are comfortable. If you stress the head and neck, you can restrict blood flow to the eyes... And keep a few pieces of hard candy in your pocket. That can give you a boost when you start to get tired. It’s short term, but long enough for you to make your shot.

Be consistent, shot to shot in everything you do. It’ll work out for you.

 

[Jimbo47]

As DoubleDeuce said, Drop your right elbow down along your side, and not straight out.
That is key as it lowers your arm/shoulder to accept the dropped stock butt plate.
I don't like shooting my Hawken from a bench, and when I do, I pile up the sandbags pretty high to elevate the rifle so I'm sitting in a semi upright position, moreso than with a modern firearm.

 

[CheckSix]

Thanks to everybody for their input.
With my left elbow on the table, I am quite steady. I hold the fore end rather than let the rifle go to free recoil because I believe that will more closely approximate the point of impact I will get when shooting without the bags. If I was going for benchrest competition I might try free recoil.
I haven't had problems with accuracy; the gun will seemingly shoot touching holes with almost any charge; they're all just higher than I'd like.
The PRB's impact right atop the brass bead at fifty yards with the sight all the way down; I'd like a little more adjustment potential.
Still, things are progressing...
Thanks again.